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foreign

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[Music]

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foreign

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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foreign

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Wilderness I bid you all good evening

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good morning good afternoon wherever you

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may be Across the Nation around the

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world my name is Leah Prime and this is

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the invisible night school

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for those of you just joining us the

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invisible night school is a small

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Consortium of lay researchers and

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Scholars pursuing this study and

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exploration of ufology high strangeness

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and the phenomenon

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ins is not a monolith we represent

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varied ideas backgrounds disciplines and

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experiences and seek to engage in good

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faith dialogue with other curious minds

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tonight we're joined by Sarah scholes

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Sarah schools is a freelance journalist

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and contributing writer at wired and

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Popular Science she's also the author of

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making contact Jill Tarter in the search

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for extraterrestrial intelligence which

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came out in 2017 and they are already

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here UFO culture and why we see saucers

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which came out in 2020

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she also has a forthcoming book coming

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out I believe later this year maybe

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early next year called Mass defect life

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in the nuclear age we're super excited

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to have Sarah join us so without any

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further delay I'm going to welcome her

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Nick and Campbell onto the Stream

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how's everybody doing very well Nick how

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are you doing tonight

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excellent great it's great to have you

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Sarah thanks for joining us great to be

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yeah where should we begin

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I I really wanted to know a little bit

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more about uh they're already here can

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you tell us a little bit about that book

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and kind of how you came to write it

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sure um yeah it all started for me back

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in the uh famous or inFAMOUS December

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2017 I believe it was with the big day

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our time story about the pentagon's UFO

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program and I um I read that like

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seemingly everyone else on this planet I

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guess and uh just you know I've been

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interested in astronomy and space and

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everything for a long time and I had

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never really delved into the UFO world

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but um that caught my attention and I uh

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had an editor at Wired Magazine who was

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like hey why don't you look into that

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weird thing the New York Times published

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and uh so I just kind of started going

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through the article Point by point and

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trying to figure out everything I could

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about every sentence in there and then

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my editor was like wow that's going to

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be a long article and so when it's going

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to be a long article you have to write a

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book and so uh I embarked on writing

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there already here which I hope at least

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is a kind of uh I'm not an

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anthropologist but an anthropological

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look good different different different

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aspects of the UFO community and how

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it's evolved over time like whether

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through politics or money or spiritual

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belief or conspiracy and just kind of

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meeting people in different Realms like

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that and kind of hoping to relay their

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experiences through 250 or so pages

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did you um in your experience kind of as

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an a pseudo-anthropologist did you see a

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lot of overlap between the UFO kind of

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community and the conspiracy theory

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community

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I did some although uh I want to be

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careful to say that I mean there does

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seem to be some kind of Venn diagram

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between some elements of conspiracy

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theory world and some elements of of UFO

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world but I think what what actually

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started me to be really interested in

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the book were people who did not

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necessarily think about it that way but

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we're just like here's this really

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interesting mystery that's been with

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humans for you know a debatable amount

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of time and

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um I think this this naughty problem is

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very interesting and I want to pursue it

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and so those people doing it that way

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where um more of who I talk to than

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people on the conspiracy side I don't

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know do you do you guys see a lot of uh

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conspiracy things going on

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I mean it depends there's a there's so

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many different uh kind of like sub

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sections of the community as a whole

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like UFO Twitter is only like one of

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those subdivisions and stuff you know so

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yeah I mean you see some overlap but not

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everybody like all of us we all come

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from different kind of perspectives but

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I wouldn't say any of it is um

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conspiracy theory

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thank you Nick but with that segue yeah

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so I'm like I'm very very interested

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um I think you know I will say that

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occasionally when people get upset at me

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on Twitter they'll call me a conspiracy

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theorist which is really interesting

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um and I I don't mean that ironically

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because I regularly engage with and talk

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about conspiracy theories and write on

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them like I'm writing this book on Art

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Bell

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um but um and more interested in

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conspiracies is like modern folklore

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and like Community like sense making and

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myth making

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um and also very much came of age when

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there were fun conspiracy theories they

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weren't like

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the Jews did 9 11 and the vaccine's

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gonna kill us all those were like the

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less Savory conspiracies we still have

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the Flat Earth people around yeah like

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Flat Earth seems so endearing to me

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uh the UFO Community which is similar to

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what's happened with the kind of like

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woo-woo spirituality Community which I

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am definitely a member of that is that

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um conspiracy theories because ufology

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and these spirituality communities are

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so kind of ontologically generous

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it also creates the space for conspiracy

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theories to kind of worm their way in I

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think

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um

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and also we have a very tardy Lewis so

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I'm going to get him added to the stream

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as well I know no good man

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Lewis there he is hi good evening

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welcome to the invisible night school

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we're glad you could join us

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later from Day School

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laughs

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yeah I mean I I actually love conspiracy

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theories not the gross ones but like the

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idea of something that you could just

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like try to unravel and figure out

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um I mean I think some conspiracy

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theories can be dangerous and some of

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them are very illogical but I as a

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journalist actually

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um I try to have conspiracy theory

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Fridays is what I call them where I just

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pick like a weird idea I have that's

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probably not true and try to see if I

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could find any evidence before or

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against it and just like allow a little

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rabbit hole because it's it's fun in its

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way

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is there anything in your past that you

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would attribute that open-mindedness to

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like retaining that interest in looking

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at those things that maybe aren't true

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because I get a sense that a lot of

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people lose that at some point in their

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lives

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yeah

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um

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I don't know I kind of traced a lot of

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my uh philosophy about the world back to

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my uh upbringing so I guess we'll get

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deep really fast which is I was raised

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up very uh a very devoutly Mormon and so

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and then I left the church when I was

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um 18 basically as soon as I could find

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out things about the world for myself

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and

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um I think just that experience of

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having like this entire world view like

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set out for you of like here's

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everything that's true it's definitely

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true we're the only ones who know the

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truth and then

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finding out that I didn't think that any

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of it was true kind of made me think

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that like

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um it doesn't sound very humble to say

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you're humble but I think it made me

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feel like I don't know anything and

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um uh I want to try to find things out

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and prove myself wrong and all of that

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kind of thing so

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um that's probably what my therapist

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would say came from

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and that you had your book actually uh

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the first one making contact if I

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remember correctly it was came out in

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2017. and if uh and that's what that

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means it's about making contact but not

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about UFOs themselves so

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um did you have a completely distinct

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perspective on something like seti from

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like people are seeing things in Earth's

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atmosphere was that sort of like your

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view historically

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yeah definitely and I think that is like

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I came I came from the world of

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astronomy like before I decided not to

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do that I was planning to go be an

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astronomer and that's how they think of

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it in general as not like you know

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things on a spectrum aliens are strange

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things in the universe on the Spectrum

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but like there's this thing called seti

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it's separate from these things that

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people see in the sky and so um honestly

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I never thought about UFOs very much at

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all and I was just very focused on the

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the world of the study people which is a

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little less distinct now I think

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probably that I'll you know the past

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five or six years have happened than it

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used to be but back then was just like

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two two ships in the night I guess

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I don't know do you do you guys think of

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them on a kind of Continuum or

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well I'm just going to keep asking you

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no I don't uh personally think that

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things people are seeing in the

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atmosphere are you know non-human

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intelligence or something I don't think

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that Louise what about you

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um I agree with you Campbell um but oh

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wow

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I mean I think there's a definitely a

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psychosocial aspect to it and uh that's

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what I find interesting I pretty much

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don't credit the ET hypothesis at all

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like I think there is probably a life

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out there in the universe but I just uh

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in a way it would be like the most

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boring explanation for UFO

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yeah I agree I think it's a really human

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idea the um we kind of put ourselves

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into the unknown so you know lights in

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the sky that we can't identify are you

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know little people and vehicles just

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like we are yeah I'm I'm not too big on

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Leah let us know what you think let it

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rip right okay is the affirmative action

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woo I will say

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um yeah so one of my favorite things

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that Nick has ever said is that

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um ufology isn't just one thing right

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and

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um

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I am extremely fascinated by

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experiencers

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um because I see them through a lens of

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spiritual emergence which is something

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that's happened to humans basically

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forever

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um but I'm especially fascinated by how

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people make the connection between their

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experiences whatever they are like

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00:12:26,329 --> 00:12:23,459
without conferring like cause how they

280
00:12:27,530 --> 00:12:26,339
connect those to UFOs like how do they

281
00:12:29,389 --> 00:12:27,540
make the connection that something

282
00:12:31,130 --> 00:12:29,399
happened to them where they had an

283
00:12:33,170 --> 00:12:31,140
Awakening or a Transcendent experience

284
00:12:35,509 --> 00:12:33,180
of some kind and then

285
00:12:37,790 --> 00:12:35,519
it winds up connected to like lights in

286
00:12:39,230 --> 00:12:37,800
the sky or ships or whatever

287
00:12:41,569 --> 00:12:39,240
um I'm largely of the opinion that what

288
00:12:43,009 --> 00:12:41,579
people physically are seeing is likely

289
00:12:44,449 --> 00:12:43,019
prosaic

290
00:12:47,629 --> 00:12:44,459
um but I do think something truly

291
00:12:49,850 --> 00:12:47,639
numinous and mysterious happens on sort

292
00:12:51,710 --> 00:12:49,860
of the periphery of Human Experience

293
00:12:55,009 --> 00:12:51,720
whether deliberately induced or

294
00:12:57,230 --> 00:12:55,019
spontaneous and I haven't dismissed the

295
00:12:58,670 --> 00:12:57,240
idea of it being near non-human

296
00:13:00,610 --> 00:12:58,680
intelligence or something similar to

297
00:13:03,650 --> 00:13:00,620
that

298
00:13:05,090 --> 00:13:03,660
I've also been interested in the past I

299
00:13:06,889 --> 00:13:05,100
can't remember now who brought it up to

300
00:13:09,050 --> 00:13:06,899
me but just the different meanings that

301
00:13:11,389 --> 00:13:09,060
people attribute to to seeing something

302
00:13:13,069 --> 00:13:11,399
in the sky like you know my neighbor

303
00:13:16,009 --> 00:13:13,079
could walk out see something truly

304
00:13:17,629 --> 00:13:16,019
Strange In The Sky go huh and like walk

305
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:17,639
back inside and never think about it

306
00:13:20,690 --> 00:13:19,200
again and then someone else could have

307
00:13:22,129 --> 00:13:20,700
like a whole Awakening about the

308
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:22,139
universe and it could form like their

309
00:13:26,629 --> 00:13:25,200
worldview personality for for years

310
00:13:29,449 --> 00:13:26,639
Nick it's like the Hudson Valley

311
00:13:30,650 --> 00:13:29,459
sightings yeah exactly yeah these are um

312
00:13:32,569 --> 00:13:30,660
are you familiar with the Hudson Valley

313
00:13:33,829 --> 00:13:32,579
wave of the 80s

314
00:13:36,889 --> 00:13:33,839
uh

315
00:13:41,150 --> 00:13:39,530
give me a refresher yeah they kind of

316
00:13:43,850 --> 00:13:41,160
coincidentally happened on like on

317
00:13:46,009 --> 00:13:43,860
weekends during the summer only

318
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:46,019
um looking looking back on the reporting

319
00:13:48,769 --> 00:13:47,279
of that you kind of discovered that it

320
00:13:51,170 --> 00:13:48,779
was this group of pilots flying out of

321
00:13:53,690 --> 00:13:51,180
Stormville airport and like these

322
00:13:56,269 --> 00:13:53,700
sightings actually became predictable

323
00:13:59,629 --> 00:13:56,279
um however a lot of the individual

324
00:14:02,569 --> 00:13:59,639
witness accounts from this or this wave

325
00:14:03,470 --> 00:14:02,579
are really fascinating these people had

326
00:14:05,690 --> 00:14:03,480
like

327
00:14:08,150 --> 00:14:05,700
psychic experiences as they described

328
00:14:11,389 --> 00:14:08,160
seeing this what turned out to be a

329
00:14:12,769 --> 00:14:11,399
formation of planes flying so like that

330
00:14:15,170 --> 00:14:12,779
is still kind of like an interesting

331
00:14:17,690 --> 00:14:15,180
facet about UFOs even when the actual

332
00:14:20,810 --> 00:14:17,700
case is solved the uh it becomes an ifo

333
00:14:22,430 --> 00:14:20,820
in that situation but yeah all of these

334
00:14:24,650 --> 00:14:22,440
people are claiming to have these um

335
00:14:27,290 --> 00:14:24,660
kind of extraordinary experiences so

336
00:14:29,569 --> 00:14:27,300
that's I mean that's more interesting to

337
00:14:30,829 --> 00:14:29,579
me than what the UFO is more often than

338
00:14:32,810 --> 00:14:30,839
not

339
00:14:35,569 --> 00:14:32,820
Sarah could you tell us a little bit

340
00:14:39,050 --> 00:14:35,579
more about your experience engaging with

341
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:39,060
the modern UFO subject as distinct from

342
00:14:44,329 --> 00:14:40,560
the search for extraterrestrial

343
00:14:46,550 --> 00:14:44,339
intelligence through astronomy and

344
00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:46,560
in your book like what motivated you to

345
00:14:50,990 --> 00:14:48,720
go on the journey that you uh describe

346
00:14:53,030 --> 00:14:51,000
and uh could you talk a little bit about

347
00:14:54,889 --> 00:14:53,040
how you saw things that you couldn't

348
00:14:57,290 --> 00:14:54,899
explain and the psychological process

349
00:14:59,389 --> 00:14:57,300
that you went through in interpreting

350
00:15:01,069 --> 00:14:59,399
those observations

351
00:15:02,569 --> 00:15:01,079
sure

352
00:15:04,730 --> 00:15:02,579
um let's see

353
00:15:05,990 --> 00:15:04,740
where to start

354
00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:06,000
um

355
00:15:09,050 --> 00:15:07,260
compelled me

356
00:15:11,629 --> 00:15:09,060
out it was

357
00:15:13,790 --> 00:15:11,639
um you know everybody's a little bit uh

358
00:15:15,710 --> 00:15:13,800
self-centered so what compelled me was

359
00:15:17,389 --> 00:15:15,720
that I recognized a lot of myself and

360
00:15:19,730 --> 00:15:17,399
the people who I first interviewed about

361
00:15:23,509 --> 00:15:19,740
UFOs just like people

362
00:15:25,189 --> 00:15:23,519
who like something to investigate like

363
00:15:27,769 --> 00:15:25,199
to think about Big Ideas and big

364
00:15:30,290 --> 00:15:27,779
problems like a mystery

365
00:15:33,530 --> 00:15:30,300
um and uh you know gets get sucked into

366
00:15:35,329 --> 00:15:33,540
topics and I identify with all of that I

367
00:15:37,790 --> 00:15:35,339
think those are also good qualities in a

368
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:37,800
a journalist and so

369
00:15:41,389 --> 00:15:39,360
um you know that helped me I think

370
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:41,399
connect to people on this topic that

371
00:15:45,850 --> 00:15:42,720
honestly I really hadn't thought about

372
00:15:48,590 --> 00:15:45,860
very much at all about kind of um

373
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:48,600
uh I don't know I like planes I like

374
00:15:52,610 --> 00:15:50,399
space it would have made sense that I

375
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:52,620
had been compelled by UFOs before this

376
00:15:57,170 --> 00:15:56,399
but it took took this and

377
00:15:59,689 --> 00:15:57,180
um

378
00:16:02,090 --> 00:15:59,699
let's see uh what was the other half of

379
00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:02,100
the question oh my own experience is

380
00:16:07,790 --> 00:16:04,800
seeing things I couldn't explain

381
00:16:10,009 --> 00:16:07,800
um yeah I think the first time I really

382
00:16:12,050 --> 00:16:10,019
saw something that was truly strange was

383
00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:12,060
a pretty cool experience

384
00:16:19,069 --> 00:16:14,160
um even though it wasn't a UFO I was out

385
00:16:21,470 --> 00:16:19,079
in uh Montana for or sorry Wyoming

386
00:16:24,889 --> 00:16:21,480
um for the solar eclipse

387
00:16:26,689 --> 00:16:24,899
um you know a few years ago and uh I was

388
00:16:29,810 --> 00:16:26,699
camping with some friends in this pretty

389
00:16:31,610 --> 00:16:29,820
remote area and we were all just we it

390
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:31,620
was a fire ban so we were all just

391
00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:35,040
sitting around in the dark making uh

392
00:16:39,410 --> 00:16:37,920
small talk and staring or deep talk and

393
00:16:41,930 --> 00:16:39,420
staring at the sky and then all of a

394
00:16:44,090 --> 00:16:41,940
sudden this light came and it was like a

395
00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:44,100
spotlight kind of swinging down and then

396
00:16:49,249 --> 00:16:47,040
like beaming itself directly at us and

397
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:49,259
then going away and for just like you

398
00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:50,880
know that whole thing lasted maybe a

399
00:16:55,670 --> 00:16:52,800
second but for like the second where it

400
00:16:57,590 --> 00:16:55,680
was pointed at me I was like oh my God

401
00:16:59,389 --> 00:16:57,600
they found me they've been here I didn't

402
00:17:01,249 --> 00:16:59,399
think they were real and there's there's

403
00:17:03,170 --> 00:17:01,259
a crazy thing and it's gonna attract or

404
00:17:05,210 --> 00:17:03,180
be me up into

405
00:17:09,169 --> 00:17:05,220
um it's UFO and you know I I am also I

406
00:17:11,510 --> 00:17:09,179
am also not on the the eth train really

407
00:17:13,490 --> 00:17:11,520
um in general though I'm uh open to the

408
00:17:15,530 --> 00:17:13,500
idea and so it was very strange to me

409
00:17:17,630 --> 00:17:15,540
that I kind of had that reaction to

410
00:17:19,669 --> 00:17:17,640
something that turned out to be the

411
00:17:22,730 --> 00:17:19,679
International Space Station

412
00:17:24,890 --> 00:17:22,740
um swinging by overhead and and having a

413
00:17:26,449 --> 00:17:24,900
flare but it was just another one of

414
00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:26,459
those moments where you're like oh you

415
00:17:29,330 --> 00:17:27,600
think you're so smart and you know

416
00:17:31,130 --> 00:17:29,340
everything about the universe here's a

417
00:17:32,750 --> 00:17:31,140
weird Spotlight from space that's Gonna

418
00:17:35,029 --> 00:17:32,760
Shine at you

419
00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:35,039
um and then I think

420
00:17:39,770 --> 00:17:38,160
uh the other time in reporting the book

421
00:17:42,710 --> 00:17:39,780
that I encountered stuff was I went out

422
00:17:46,370 --> 00:17:42,720
and camped outside of Area 51 for a few

423
00:17:47,630 --> 00:17:46,380
days highly recommend very fun

424
00:17:49,250 --> 00:17:47,640
um I don't know if you guys have ever

425
00:17:52,070 --> 00:17:49,260
done it but you should take a road trip

426
00:17:53,570 --> 00:17:52,080
I'd love to it was great but I don't

427
00:17:56,090 --> 00:17:53,580
know I think it's not always as exciting

428
00:17:57,890 --> 00:17:56,100
as it was when I was there but

429
00:18:01,070 --> 00:17:57,900
um you know again just camping in the

430
00:18:03,470 --> 00:18:01,080
dark staring up at the sky and uh I

431
00:18:06,470 --> 00:18:03,480
first saw what turned out to be flare

432
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:06,480
exercises where Jets just drop Flair is

433
00:18:11,029 --> 00:18:08,160
kind of in a formation and the formation

434
00:18:12,590 --> 00:18:11,039
looks like a flying saucer and although

435
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:12,600
I knew like this is clearly military

436
00:18:17,810 --> 00:18:15,120
testing I was like wow I absolutely

437
00:18:20,090 --> 00:18:17,820
understand why people think there are

438
00:18:21,590 --> 00:18:20,100
UFOs out here and then just other this

439
00:18:24,830 --> 00:18:21,600
is Steven Greer's whole business model

440
00:18:26,750 --> 00:18:24,840
you're talking about I know I know this

441
00:18:28,190 --> 00:18:26,760
is my advertising pitch to capitalize on

442
00:18:31,130 --> 00:18:28,200
it for my own

443
00:18:33,650 --> 00:18:31,140
um my own tourist weekend

444
00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:33,660
um but yeah I think it was just like I I

445
00:18:38,029 --> 00:18:36,000
am compelled by the idea of seeing

446
00:18:39,289 --> 00:18:38,039
things that I can't explain even if I

447
00:18:42,049 --> 00:18:39,299
later explain them and like being

448
00:18:44,690 --> 00:18:42,059
surprised and noticing things

449
00:18:46,190 --> 00:18:44,700
um and so it made me feel also special

450
00:18:47,810 --> 00:18:46,200
that I got to see it which I think is

451
00:18:49,850 --> 00:18:47,820
how a lot of people feel when they

452
00:18:50,510 --> 00:18:49,860
experience something

453
00:18:53,270 --> 00:18:50,520
um

454
00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:53,280
yeah I'll stop there you said you were

455
00:18:56,510 --> 00:18:55,200
kind of surprised by the reaction of the

456
00:18:59,450 --> 00:18:56,520
sighting that turned out to be the space

457
00:19:01,490 --> 00:18:59,460
station did you did you have much of a

458
00:19:04,310 --> 00:19:01,500
history growing up being interested in

459
00:19:06,409 --> 00:19:04,320
UFOs like where did that uh idea come

460
00:19:08,090 --> 00:19:06,419
from that when you saw that that

461
00:19:11,810 --> 00:19:08,100
Spotlight flip around that it was like

462
00:19:14,750 --> 00:19:11,820
extraterrestrial yeah I think I mean I I

463
00:19:16,789 --> 00:19:14,760
didn't I was always interested in Aliens

464
00:19:18,710 --> 00:19:16,799
like I was a little kid who would draw

465
00:19:20,690 --> 00:19:18,720
like here's a fake planet in the aliens

466
00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:20,700
I made up to live on it and that kind of

467
00:19:25,490 --> 00:19:23,520
thing but I somehow left UFOs out of the

468
00:19:29,090 --> 00:19:25,500
equation entirely and so I think it's

469
00:19:31,250 --> 00:19:29,100
just living in our culture with movies

470
00:19:33,529 --> 00:19:31,260
and books and and things like that that

471
00:19:35,450 --> 00:19:33,539
if that happened in a movie like either

472
00:19:37,130 --> 00:19:35,460
the military is abducting you because

473
00:19:38,750 --> 00:19:37,140
you're like a secret spy and they

474
00:19:43,370 --> 00:19:38,760
definitely need you to save the country

475
00:19:48,529 --> 00:19:45,770
so you would say that that that concept

476
00:19:51,909 --> 00:19:48,539
struck you but it it originated probably

477
00:19:54,470 --> 00:19:51,919
from media I think so yeah

478
00:19:56,029 --> 00:19:54,480
yeah I didn't I didn't actively like

479
00:19:59,150 --> 00:19:56,039
hold the belief that that that that

480
00:20:00,830 --> 00:19:59,160
things in the sky were coming or were

481
00:20:02,930 --> 00:20:00,840
from any place you know

482
00:20:05,630 --> 00:20:02,940
spectacular

483
00:20:08,930 --> 00:20:05,640
did you visit the Integratron

484
00:20:11,150 --> 00:20:08,940
on in your Journeys I forgot no I'm not

485
00:20:14,029 --> 00:20:11,160
familiar with it what is it oh that was

486
00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:14,039
a van George Van tassel's um

487
00:20:18,409 --> 00:20:16,260
sort of stillborn project in the

488
00:20:20,090 --> 00:20:18,419
California desert like he was going to

489
00:20:22,370 --> 00:20:20,100
build a oh you know about this Leah

490
00:20:23,930 --> 00:20:22,380
right about oh dude I don't not only do

491
00:20:26,710 --> 00:20:23,940
I know about it I'm planning on going to

492
00:20:30,470 --> 00:20:26,720
it and I go to contact in the desert

493
00:20:32,210 --> 00:20:30,480
yeah near giant rock isn't it yeah yeah

494
00:20:35,270 --> 00:20:32,220
like an hour

495
00:20:38,510 --> 00:20:35,280
hour and a half from Palm Springs

496
00:20:39,950 --> 00:20:38,520
but I was gonna ask um Sarah about I

497
00:20:42,890 --> 00:20:39,960
just brought up the Integratron because

498
00:20:45,110 --> 00:20:42,900
of the contactees

499
00:20:47,150 --> 00:20:45,120
um do you do you think there's like a

500
00:20:49,130 --> 00:20:47,160
resuscitation of the contactee scene

501
00:20:51,230 --> 00:20:49,140
these days like what what are the

502
00:20:53,510 --> 00:20:51,240
parallels between like the 60s and 70s

503
00:20:55,010 --> 00:20:53,520
and now

504
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:55,020
hmm

505
00:20:59,930 --> 00:20:57,360
that's a good question

506
00:21:03,169 --> 00:20:59,940
um I didn't do totally deep research on

507
00:21:05,150 --> 00:21:03,179
contacting myself in part because I felt

508
00:21:07,310 --> 00:21:05,160
their experiences were so like

509
00:21:11,510 --> 00:21:07,320
emotionally affecting and profound that

510
00:21:13,070 --> 00:21:11,520
I wasn't like uh equipped to uh

511
00:21:14,570 --> 00:21:13,080
to write to write about that like I

512
00:21:18,350 --> 00:21:14,580
didn't have the background to do it well

513
00:21:19,789 --> 00:21:18,360
but I would say that I think that and uh

514
00:21:21,830 --> 00:21:19,799
since I'm sort of making this up you

515
00:21:24,590 --> 00:21:21,840
guys can just tell me if I'm wrong but

516
00:21:26,930 --> 00:21:24,600
that um the the way that the modern uh

517
00:21:28,370 --> 00:21:26,940
World works now is people can find each

518
00:21:30,590 --> 00:21:28,380
other and when people can find each

519
00:21:33,830 --> 00:21:30,600
other and talk about something it makes

520
00:21:35,690 --> 00:21:33,840
them more willing to reveal more about

521
00:21:37,549 --> 00:21:35,700
it and

522
00:21:39,649 --> 00:21:37,559
um you know I feel like in the 60s and

523
00:21:41,270 --> 00:21:39,659
70s people were also open to that and

524
00:21:42,529 --> 00:21:41,280
were having a lot of communal groups and

525
00:21:44,930 --> 00:21:42,539
things like that and maybe that's

526
00:21:46,669 --> 00:21:44,940
happening online that's my hypothesis

527
00:21:48,409 --> 00:21:46,679
that just made up what do you think it's

528
00:21:50,330 --> 00:21:48,419
it's a great it's a great hypothesis

529
00:21:52,490 --> 00:21:50,340
because I think there's also this

530
00:21:55,310 --> 00:21:52,500
memetic component to these disclosures

531
00:21:58,070 --> 00:21:55,320
where one person will hear

532
00:22:00,110 --> 00:21:58,080
someone told their story and then it

533
00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:00,120
will trigger something in them that says

534
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:02,400
it is safe for me to tell my story and

535
00:22:06,169 --> 00:22:04,080
now we have like a shared reference

536
00:22:08,630 --> 00:22:06,179
point so I can make my disclosures or

537
00:22:10,730 --> 00:22:08,640
talk about my own experience and of

538
00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:10,740
course I mean

539
00:22:15,049 --> 00:22:13,260
no more may be said about just the echo

540
00:22:18,169 --> 00:22:15,059
chamber Dynamic that we find online

541
00:22:21,049 --> 00:22:18,179
right where we all are super homophily

542
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:21,059
is a main driver in Twitter or on these

543
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:23,280
social media sites or connecting online

544
00:22:28,130 --> 00:22:24,960
so we tend to surround ourselves with

545
00:22:30,350 --> 00:22:28,140
people just like ourselves which um

546
00:22:32,330 --> 00:22:30,360
particularly when you start getting to

547
00:22:33,890 --> 00:22:32,340
some of these more Fringe ideas it's not

548
00:22:37,610 --> 00:22:33,900
necessarily always the best thing in the

549
00:22:41,630 --> 00:22:39,890
so I was I was gonna

550
00:22:44,029 --> 00:22:41,640
and she already touched on media and

551
00:22:45,590 --> 00:22:44,039
books and movies and things like that

552
00:22:46,970 --> 00:22:45,600
um

553
00:22:48,350 --> 00:22:46,980
you know part of the reason I was super

554
00:22:49,970 --> 00:22:48,360
excited to have you on is when I saw

555
00:22:51,529 --> 00:22:49,980
your interview with Jack I was like oh

556
00:22:52,789 --> 00:22:51,539
my God this is totally someone I want to

557
00:22:53,930 --> 00:22:52,799
be friends with because I feel like

558
00:22:56,570 --> 00:22:53,940
there's just so much in your background

559
00:22:57,950 --> 00:22:56,580
that's really fascinating and insightful

560
00:22:59,390 --> 00:22:57,960
um and I was wondering if you could tell

561
00:23:02,450 --> 00:22:59,400
us about

562
00:23:05,630 --> 00:23:02,460
um what thinkers or books or ideas have

563
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:05,640
really shaped your world view

564
00:23:11,149 --> 00:23:08,640
hmm that's a very good question

565
00:23:13,669 --> 00:23:11,159
um I mean I think going back to the

566
00:23:16,850 --> 00:23:13,679
earliest thing that

567
00:23:18,710 --> 00:23:16,860
really shaped my worldview about the the

568
00:23:21,529 --> 00:23:18,720
universe and kind of big scientific

569
00:23:24,169 --> 00:23:21,539
questions about the universe was uh Carl

570
00:23:26,090 --> 00:23:24,179
Sagan's contact which is not everyone's

571
00:23:28,970 --> 00:23:26,100
favorite Carl Sagan book and not

572
00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:28,980
everyone loves Carl Sagan but I got it

573
00:23:32,510 --> 00:23:30,960
when I was I think I read it when I was

574
00:23:34,669 --> 00:23:32,520
like 12 or 13

575
00:23:36,770 --> 00:23:34,679
um which was a very big book for a 12

576
00:23:38,990 --> 00:23:36,780
year old but just

577
00:23:40,789 --> 00:23:39,000
um introducing me to the idea kind of

578
00:23:42,169 --> 00:23:40,799
out outside of the religion that I was

579
00:23:45,770 --> 00:23:42,179
part of that like people were

580
00:23:48,710 --> 00:23:45,780
investigating things beyond Earth and

581
00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:48,720
Beyond humans and

582
00:23:52,250 --> 00:23:50,940
um that that that was something people

583
00:23:54,529 --> 00:23:52,260
did for a job and it was something

584
00:23:55,850 --> 00:23:54,539
people wrote books about and so that was

585
00:24:00,310 --> 00:23:55,860
kind of

586
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:00,320
um world expanding for me let's see

587
00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:02,880
what else

588
00:24:05,510 --> 00:24:03,600
um

589
00:24:09,470 --> 00:24:05,520
I read a lot of

590
00:24:11,990 --> 00:24:09,480
fiction which I feel like is not the the

591
00:24:14,210 --> 00:24:12,000
best analogy here

592
00:24:16,610 --> 00:24:14,220
um can I ask you guys to share one while

593
00:24:19,909 --> 00:24:16,620
I think of my next best one

594
00:24:22,430 --> 00:24:19,919
for yourself sure well I don't know if

595
00:24:24,110 --> 00:24:22,440
I'll share exactly my favorite thinker

596
00:24:26,630 --> 00:24:24,120
but I read this book

597
00:24:28,850 --> 00:24:26,640
called when we cease to understand the

598
00:24:30,529 --> 00:24:28,860
World by Benjamin labutot anyone who

599
00:24:32,570 --> 00:24:30,539
follows me on Twitter sees me carry on

600
00:24:34,909 --> 00:24:32,580
about this book all the time

601
00:24:36,590 --> 00:24:34,919
um and it's basically like magical

602
00:24:40,970 --> 00:24:36,600
realist

603
00:24:44,810 --> 00:24:40,980
literary fiction that tells a combined

604
00:24:47,690 --> 00:24:44,820
story of all the really

605
00:24:50,270 --> 00:24:47,700
um Advanced physicists and

606
00:24:54,110 --> 00:24:50,280
mathematicians of the 20th century and

607
00:24:57,049 --> 00:24:54,120
how their ideas interplay with

608
00:24:58,730 --> 00:24:57,059
um non-duality and advaita vedanta so

609
00:25:01,549 --> 00:24:58,740
it's like inner it's these narratives of

610
00:25:02,409 --> 00:25:01,559
like Schrodinger and Schwartz child

611
00:25:05,029 --> 00:25:02,419
um

612
00:25:06,830 --> 00:25:05,039
interspersed with like excerpts from the

613
00:25:08,630 --> 00:25:06,840
bhagavad-gita

614
00:25:10,430 --> 00:25:08,640
um it's very much I've called it like an

615
00:25:12,289 --> 00:25:10,440
experience or novel without actually

616
00:25:14,450 --> 00:25:12,299
being an experienced or novel because

617
00:25:18,049 --> 00:25:14,460
it's one of those books when I read it

618
00:25:20,270 --> 00:25:18,059
felt like it was really touching on like

619
00:25:23,270 --> 00:25:20,280
the Transcendent or mystical and also

620
00:25:25,490 --> 00:25:23,280
yes I see Michael Redmond French Quest

621
00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:25,500
friend with a pod also says fabulous

622
00:25:29,330 --> 00:25:27,840
book yes great minds think alike but I

623
00:25:31,310 --> 00:25:29,340
recommend this book constantly because

624
00:25:33,169 --> 00:25:31,320
it came into my life as I was getting

625
00:25:35,210 --> 00:25:33,179
much more involved in in my own

626
00:25:37,789 --> 00:25:35,220
spirituality and sort of Engagement with

627
00:25:39,169 --> 00:25:37,799
mysticism and has gone on to be

628
00:25:40,970 --> 00:25:39,179
something I just kind of categorically

629
00:25:43,130 --> 00:25:40,980
recommend to anyone who has a strong

630
00:25:44,330 --> 00:25:43,140
sense of curiosity especially about bath

631
00:25:46,850 --> 00:25:44,340
and science

632
00:25:49,730 --> 00:25:46,860
okay I'm gonna have to go look that one

633
00:25:51,649 --> 00:25:49,740
up and read it I thought of I thought of

634
00:25:53,810 --> 00:25:51,659
uh two more that I kind of read a

635
00:25:57,769 --> 00:25:53,820
formative years probably when I was a

636
00:25:58,430 --> 00:25:57,779
little older that I think I are similar

637
00:26:03,590 --> 00:25:58,440
um

638
00:26:05,990 --> 00:26:03,600
uh I read uh Borges fictionus I don't

639
00:26:08,570 --> 00:26:06,000
know oh yeah that one yeah which is kind

640
00:26:10,370 --> 00:26:08,580
of this is awesome yeah I thought it was

641
00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:10,380
like my family always used to watch

642
00:26:14,210 --> 00:26:12,480
Twilight Zone episodes on New Year's Eve

643
00:26:16,490 --> 00:26:14,220
during the marathon and I thought like

644
00:26:18,669 --> 00:26:16,500
this is the highbrow literary version of

645
00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:18,679
The Twilight Zone episodes of just like

646
00:26:24,769 --> 00:26:21,840
imagining weird things in the world

647
00:26:26,450 --> 00:26:24,779
um that have metaphorical meanings that

648
00:26:28,610 --> 00:26:26,460
your 16 year old mind can like maybe

649
00:26:29,990 --> 00:26:28,620
grasp or maybe not

650
00:26:32,269 --> 00:26:30,000
um and just kind of yeah playing playing

651
00:26:34,909 --> 00:26:32,279
around with the world and imagining it

652
00:26:37,789 --> 00:26:34,919
different ways and similarly

653
00:26:39,710 --> 00:26:37,799
um uh the book Einstein's dreams had a

654
00:26:41,090 --> 00:26:39,720
pretty big impact on me you guys have

655
00:26:44,029 --> 00:26:41,100
read that once by Alex that's a great

656
00:26:46,789 --> 00:26:44,039
appointment yeah yeah and just every

657
00:26:48,890 --> 00:26:46,799
chapter he imagines that space time

658
00:26:50,390 --> 00:26:48,900
works differently like what if we lived

659
00:26:52,610 --> 00:26:50,400
in a world where things were different

660
00:26:54,289 --> 00:26:52,620
and I think I really just admired in

661
00:26:55,789 --> 00:26:54,299
both of those books the way to yeah the

662
00:26:57,289 --> 00:26:55,799
way to take the world is we know it and

663
00:26:59,450 --> 00:26:57,299
imagine it is something slightly

664
00:27:01,010 --> 00:26:59,460
different weirder and baby more

665
00:27:07,269 --> 00:27:01,020
interesting

666
00:27:09,950 --> 00:27:07,279
of the UFO Community is how deeply

667
00:27:12,830 --> 00:27:09,960
psychedelics and things like that seem

668
00:27:15,890 --> 00:27:12,840
to play into it and there's a

669
00:27:18,529 --> 00:27:15,900
recognition between discrete groups that

670
00:27:20,750 --> 00:27:18,539
they're accessing a similar

671
00:27:22,010 --> 00:27:20,760
um cycle psychological State I guess

672
00:27:25,970 --> 00:27:22,020
I'll call it

673
00:27:28,210 --> 00:27:25,980
uh in your journey into UFO culture in

674
00:27:31,610 --> 00:27:28,220
writing your book they're already here

675
00:27:34,669 --> 00:27:31,620
did you encounter any of those elements

676
00:27:36,230 --> 00:27:34,679
of the the blending into the UFO culture

677
00:27:38,450 --> 00:27:36,240
of the with the psychedelics and do you

678
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:38,460
have any experiences yourself with uh

679
00:27:43,669 --> 00:27:41,039
psychedelic culture that helped you

680
00:27:45,409 --> 00:27:43,679
engage with that component

681
00:27:49,070 --> 00:27:45,419
are you asking me to reveal my drug

682
00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:49,080
experiences on camera right well

683
00:27:58,070 --> 00:27:55,250
grow cannabis like I have a license from

684
00:27:59,210 --> 00:27:58,080
the government so I'm just uh

685
00:28:01,549 --> 00:27:59,220
every

686
00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:01,559
legal in Colorado now so it's fine

687
00:28:07,549 --> 00:28:05,640
um that's where I am is Colorado um

688
00:28:11,870 --> 00:28:07,559
I'm talking to people

689
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:11,880
about UFOs really in reporting on the

690
00:28:13,870 --> 00:28:13,200
book but

691
00:28:18,110 --> 00:28:13,880
um

692
00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:18,120
uh the the first time I myself did

693
00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:21,480
psychedelic mushrooms which was

694
00:28:26,029 --> 00:28:23,760
um don't tell my college President but

695
00:28:28,730 --> 00:28:26,039
when I snuck them into the observatory

696
00:28:31,130 --> 00:28:28,740
where I uh helped run the planetarium

697
00:28:32,510 --> 00:28:31,140
and gave me and my friends a planetarium

698
00:28:36,710 --> 00:28:32,520
show

699
00:28:38,930 --> 00:28:36,720
um yeah it was pretty good but um I

700
00:28:40,610 --> 00:28:38,940
think you know I didn't have

701
00:28:42,649 --> 00:28:40,620
to have kind of mystical experiences

702
00:28:44,810 --> 00:28:42,659
myself but I think it was a very

703
00:28:45,470 --> 00:28:44,820
revealing experience too

704
00:28:48,049 --> 00:28:45,480
um

705
00:28:50,269 --> 00:28:48,059
see a very familiar world and kind of a

706
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:50,279
boring place in a totally new way is a

707
00:28:54,970 --> 00:28:51,840
totally exciting thing just kind of

708
00:28:58,909 --> 00:28:54,980
rejuvenated my my view of like everyday

709
00:29:01,610 --> 00:28:58,919
experiences and um I did write an

710
00:29:04,250 --> 00:29:01,620
article a while ago for Popular Science

711
00:29:06,950 --> 00:29:04,260
that was about people who have spiritual

712
00:29:10,990 --> 00:29:06,960
or mystical experiences while on

713
00:29:12,769 --> 00:29:11,000
psychedelics and like what what might uh

714
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:12,779
caused that

715
00:29:18,310 --> 00:29:15,120
um and what it what that aspect of it

716
00:29:20,450 --> 00:29:18,320
has to do with some of the uh you know

717
00:29:21,889 --> 00:29:20,460
medicinal properties of psychedelics

718
00:29:23,570 --> 00:29:21,899
that people are investigating like

719
00:29:26,570 --> 00:29:23,580
whether the spiritual experiences are

720
00:29:29,210 --> 00:29:26,580
tied to like clinical outcomes for

721
00:29:32,090 --> 00:29:29,220
people with PTSD or fear of death or

722
00:29:36,649 --> 00:29:32,100
addiction or things like that and um

723
00:29:38,149 --> 00:29:36,659
there was some uh amazing statistic

724
00:29:39,649 --> 00:29:38,159
um that I think I'm about to say

725
00:29:41,750 --> 00:29:39,659
correctly but it's been a while since I

726
00:29:42,529 --> 00:29:41,760
wrote the article of the the people who

727
00:29:46,010 --> 00:29:42,539
had

728
00:29:48,230 --> 00:29:46,020
um mystical experiences and uh that Were

729
00:29:49,909 --> 00:29:48,240
Somehow tied to spirituality

730
00:29:52,370 --> 00:29:49,919
um and were atheists when they started

731
00:29:56,210 --> 00:29:52,380
75 of them were not when they were done

732
00:29:58,130 --> 00:29:56,220
yeah DNT study yes this terrorism yeah

733
00:30:00,350 --> 00:29:58,140
Campbell has even said he will not try

734
00:30:05,649 --> 00:30:00,360
DMT because he's afraid of how it will

735
00:30:10,310 --> 00:30:08,870
something snaps or something like me

736
00:30:11,630 --> 00:30:10,320
before you know it you're gonna be

737
00:30:13,970 --> 00:30:11,640
surrounded by like yoga books and

738
00:30:15,409 --> 00:30:13,980
crystals and [\h__\h] I'm your super slow

739
00:30:17,870 --> 00:30:15,419
man

740
00:30:19,669 --> 00:30:17,880
I'm terrified of that geez yeah like

741
00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:19,679
something like that where you can do one

742
00:30:24,590 --> 00:30:22,080
incident and it can change your entire

743
00:30:27,049 --> 00:30:24,600
world view that's pretty wild and I feel

744
00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:27,059
like we've seen that in experiences say

745
00:30:32,269 --> 00:30:29,760
like a singular experience then shapes

746
00:30:35,630 --> 00:30:32,279
the entire trajectory of their lives

747
00:30:37,549 --> 00:30:35,640
it's a recurrent thing that we're seeing

748
00:30:38,630 --> 00:30:37,559
I'll take the Pepsi challenge I don't

749
00:30:41,529 --> 00:30:38,640
think it would

750
00:30:44,029 --> 00:30:41,539
it would um deconvert me from my atheism

751
00:30:45,830 --> 00:30:44,039
so Lewis are you coming to contact in

752
00:30:47,210 --> 00:30:45,840
the desert in July because we should

753
00:30:50,649 --> 00:30:47,220
totally all go on a field trip to the

754
00:30:56,269 --> 00:30:52,789
I think that is that your way of saying

755
00:30:56,279 --> 00:31:01,870
yes yes

756
00:31:06,049 --> 00:31:04,250
no not right now no we've been

757
00:31:08,289 --> 00:31:06,059
threatening patreon content called The

758
00:31:12,409 --> 00:31:08,299
Invisible high school

759
00:31:13,570 --> 00:31:12,419
man you created conversations about UFOs

760
00:31:17,210 --> 00:31:13,580
um

761
00:31:19,370 --> 00:31:17,220
yeah I mean like one of the things and I

762
00:31:21,529 --> 00:31:19,380
think this is me again citing some of

763
00:31:23,630 --> 00:31:21,539
Nick's Brilliance like NYX commented on

764
00:31:25,610 --> 00:31:23,640
the trend of ufology kind of very

765
00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:25,620
closely following

766
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:28,080
um or closely outpacing existent

767
00:31:32,510 --> 00:31:30,240
technology so like in the 40s and 50s

768
00:31:34,730 --> 00:31:32,520
it's like UFOs from Venus or from Mars

769
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:34,740
and like as you get later like 80s and

770
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:36,720
90s it's like Zeta reticuli or Alpha

771
00:31:42,529 --> 00:31:40,399
Centauri or whatever and now like as our

772
00:31:43,909 --> 00:31:42,539
grasp on

773
00:31:46,010 --> 00:31:43,919
um space

774
00:31:47,870 --> 00:31:46,020
in the popular imagination seems to be

775
00:31:49,190 --> 00:31:47,880
improving although I'll sidebar and say

776
00:31:50,630 --> 00:31:49,200
that I don't think that's necessarily

777
00:31:53,029 --> 00:31:50,640
the case I think we're just finding out

778
00:31:55,070 --> 00:31:53,039
how very little we actually know

779
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:55,080
um but sort of as as these Frontiers

780
00:31:58,430 --> 00:31:56,640
these physical Frontiers become more

781
00:32:01,430 --> 00:31:58,440
familiar in the public imagination we

782
00:32:03,710 --> 00:32:01,440
then move on to the next very unfamiliar

783
00:32:05,810 --> 00:32:03,720
Frontier which is sort of the mystical

784
00:32:07,130 --> 00:32:05,820
or Strange Behaviors of the Mind in

785
00:32:09,590 --> 00:32:07,140
Consciousness and I think that that

786
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:09,600
tends to be why things like psychedelics

787
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:12,000
or spiritual emergence

788
00:32:16,250 --> 00:32:14,399
um or uh Transcendent or mystical

789
00:32:18,289 --> 00:32:16,260
experiences are now starting to

790
00:32:22,630 --> 00:32:18,299
increasingly weave into the the kind of

791
00:32:31,490 --> 00:32:28,130
so have um so I know you you put um

792
00:32:34,750 --> 00:32:31,500
you put your book out uh on UFOs in 2020

793
00:32:37,909 --> 00:32:34,760
it's obviously just the start of 2023

794
00:32:39,889 --> 00:32:37,919
I'm really curious about how if at all

795
00:32:41,690 --> 00:32:39,899
your views have changed on this subject

796
00:32:43,730 --> 00:32:41,700
over the last few years

797
00:32:46,730 --> 00:32:45,470
the question I thought when I was done

798
00:32:48,950 --> 00:32:46,740
with the book that I would stop

799
00:32:49,549 --> 00:32:48,960
following it all because I was

800
00:32:52,190 --> 00:32:49,559
um

801
00:32:53,570 --> 00:32:52,200
so uh I thought well I was sick of

802
00:32:55,789 --> 00:32:53,580
writing my book for sure I wasn't sick

803
00:32:57,950 --> 00:32:55,799
of UFOs but but you know as you guys

804
00:33:00,289 --> 00:32:57,960
know you can't get away from it and so

805
00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:00,299
here I am

806
00:33:07,130 --> 00:33:04,799
um and I think that I would say

807
00:33:09,169 --> 00:33:07,140
um first that I wish my views had

808
00:33:11,630 --> 00:33:09,179
changed more maybe you know there's been

809
00:33:14,870 --> 00:33:11,640
a lot of momentum and promises about

810
00:33:17,570 --> 00:33:14,880
information that will come to light and

811
00:33:19,669 --> 00:33:17,580
uh what it will be and not that I ever

812
00:33:22,730 --> 00:33:19,679
necessarily believed any of those uh

813
00:33:24,409 --> 00:33:22,740
Promises of uh Enlightenment and

814
00:33:25,789 --> 00:33:24,419
disclosure

815
00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:25,799
um you know I thought that maybe we

816
00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:27,120
would have at least a little more to

817
00:33:31,250 --> 00:33:29,039
grab onto than we did and I feel like

818
00:33:33,230 --> 00:33:31,260
it's all kind of essentially in the same

819
00:33:37,669 --> 00:33:33,240
place as it was

820
00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:37,679
um when I started and so I think my view

821
00:33:41,690 --> 00:33:40,320
remains pretty much the same which is

822
00:33:44,330 --> 00:33:41,700
mostly

823
00:33:48,350 --> 00:33:44,340
I don't know and

824
00:33:49,130 --> 00:33:48,360
um and uh that that

825
00:33:55,009 --> 00:33:49,140
um

826
00:33:56,630 --> 00:33:55,019
is the most important and the most

827
00:33:59,269 --> 00:33:56,640
interesting including things like what

828
00:34:01,310 --> 00:33:59,279
Leah was just just talking about and so

829
00:34:03,529 --> 00:34:01,320
I think that

830
00:34:06,230 --> 00:34:03,539
um I'm excited to see how the the

831
00:34:08,930 --> 00:34:06,240
world's view of UFOs changes as the

832
00:34:10,669 --> 00:34:08,940
world itself changes and um I think

833
00:34:12,950 --> 00:34:10,679
you're right that you know it it is

834
00:34:14,750 --> 00:34:12,960
always trying to say you know one step

835
00:34:16,609 --> 00:34:14,760
ahead of current technology and I think

836
00:34:19,070 --> 00:34:16,619
that's because we are not good at

837
00:34:20,930 --> 00:34:19,080
imagining things that are just beyond

838
00:34:22,669 --> 00:34:20,940
our Horizons and so I just have to wait

839
00:34:25,369 --> 00:34:22,679
a few years to find out what's beyond

840
00:34:27,530 --> 00:34:25,379
our Horizons

841
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:27,540
really have you guys had big big view

842
00:34:31,010 --> 00:34:29,520
changes since you started looking into

843
00:34:33,169 --> 00:34:31,020
the topic

844
00:34:35,389 --> 00:34:33,179
I'm up and down all over the place all

845
00:34:37,550 --> 00:34:35,399
the time but

846
00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:37,560
um not lately I feel like I've been uh

847
00:34:42,470 --> 00:34:40,159
becoming more cynical lately

848
00:34:44,690 --> 00:34:42,480
that's just

849
00:34:47,210 --> 00:34:44,700
yeah I would say that the subject has

850
00:34:51,230 --> 00:34:47,220
certainly shaped my world view in some

851
00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:51,240
respects because it was the being like a

852
00:34:54,409 --> 00:34:53,040
you know whatever hardcore atheist

853
00:34:56,030 --> 00:34:54,419
materialist all that stuff no interest

854
00:34:58,130 --> 00:34:56,040
in any paranormal subject up until

855
00:35:01,130 --> 00:34:58,140
looking into UFOs

856
00:35:03,530 --> 00:35:01,140
it was the single subject that caused me

857
00:35:06,890 --> 00:35:03,540
to be ostracized from the mainstream

858
00:35:09,829 --> 00:35:06,900
skeptic Community the only thing that I

859
00:35:11,030 --> 00:35:09,839
was conflicting with and so in my

860
00:35:13,010 --> 00:35:11,040
perspective is that I think it's ball

861
00:35:14,810 --> 00:35:13,020
lightning it's not that it's aliens so I

862
00:35:16,670 --> 00:35:14,820
I was shocked by that confused that's

863
00:35:18,050 --> 00:35:16,680
what sucked me in was my own identity

864
00:35:22,130 --> 00:35:18,060
thing and it's like I need to understand

865
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:22,140
why I am a island on this when every

866
00:35:28,030 --> 00:35:23,760
single other thing in my life aligns

867
00:35:32,990 --> 00:35:30,530
have you figured it out

868
00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:33,000
uh well

869
00:35:38,210 --> 00:35:34,800
yeah I mean I figured out my interest

870
00:35:41,569 --> 00:35:38,220
it's motivated I think by a

871
00:35:43,730 --> 00:35:41,579
an Adaptive reflex driven by a fear of

872
00:35:45,589 --> 00:35:43,740
ostracization in community groups

873
00:35:48,410 --> 00:35:45,599
adapting over a thousands or millions of

874
00:35:50,030 --> 00:35:48,420
years you know some primates like us uh

875
00:35:52,310 --> 00:35:50,040
the biggest threats of death would be to

876
00:35:54,410 --> 00:35:52,320
be ostracized from the group so I think

877
00:35:57,230 --> 00:35:54,420
that's what has triggered my interest in

878
00:36:00,349 --> 00:35:57,240
trying to figure out how whether I'm

879
00:36:02,089 --> 00:36:00,359
insane or if uh the uh skeptic Community

880
00:36:04,490 --> 00:36:02,099
needs to catch up with what I'm saying

881
00:36:08,530 --> 00:36:04,500
the odds are I'm insane but I'm willing

882
00:36:11,870 --> 00:36:10,849
I like that Louise what about you tell

883
00:36:15,950 --> 00:36:11,880
me

884
00:36:19,069 --> 00:36:15,960
uh maybe um warming to the idea of a

885
00:36:20,690 --> 00:36:19,079
jungian aspect to human folks I never

886
00:36:23,150 --> 00:36:20,700
really thought much about yon but um

887
00:36:26,150 --> 00:36:23,160
when I read David halperin's book that

888
00:36:28,130 --> 00:36:26,160
really um inspired me although I don't

889
00:36:29,270 --> 00:36:28,140
necessarily credit his explanation but I

890
00:36:30,589 --> 00:36:29,280
think it's a

891
00:36:34,130 --> 00:36:30,599
valuable

892
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:35,329
mm-hmm

893
00:36:41,030 --> 00:36:36,720
and Leah

894
00:36:44,870 --> 00:36:41,040
let's hear it yeah I mean

895
00:36:47,930 --> 00:36:44,880
um I was a super strict hardcore

896
00:36:50,510 --> 00:36:47,940
materialist until my early 20s

897
00:36:52,849 --> 00:36:50,520
um like I was I worked at the student

898
00:36:55,310 --> 00:36:52,859
for the secular Student Association

899
00:36:56,690 --> 00:36:55,320
which is part of like the center for

900
00:36:59,210 --> 00:36:56,700
inquiry which is one of the big like

901
00:37:00,530 --> 00:36:59,220
atheist agnostic groups

902
00:37:03,770 --> 00:37:00,540
um always was very intellectually

903
00:37:06,710 --> 00:37:03,780
preoccupied with religion um I grew up

904
00:37:08,390 --> 00:37:06,720
extremely observant Jewish

905
00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:08,400
um but that's more about rules following

906
00:37:14,089 --> 00:37:11,280
than like dogmatic theology or kind of

907
00:37:15,109 --> 00:37:14,099
conferring what to think on somebody I

908
00:37:17,569 --> 00:37:15,119
mean grew up in a very very

909
00:37:18,349 --> 00:37:17,579
intellectually permissive household

910
00:37:21,230 --> 00:37:18,359
um

911
00:37:23,329 --> 00:37:21,240
and in my late 20s

912
00:37:24,890 --> 00:37:23,339
um had what I or not my late 20s excuse

913
00:37:26,930 --> 00:37:24,900
me my early 30s held what I would

914
00:37:28,790 --> 00:37:26,940
characterize is a very classic standard

915
00:37:30,530 --> 00:37:28,800
spiritual emergence without any

916
00:37:32,750 --> 00:37:30,540
psychedelics without any sort of

917
00:37:35,589 --> 00:37:32,760
external influence

918
00:37:38,750 --> 00:37:35,599
um brought on by sort of the trifecta of

919
00:37:41,810 --> 00:37:38,760
trauma and grief and

920
00:37:43,849 --> 00:37:41,820
um abstinence and lots of breath work

921
00:37:47,450 --> 00:37:43,859
and meditation

922
00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:47,460
um and that and it was a good thing I

923
00:37:50,030 --> 00:37:48,960
kind of had some background on what was

924
00:37:51,410 --> 00:37:50,040
going on

925
00:37:53,450 --> 00:37:51,420
um because I didn't have any history of

926
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:53,460
like bipolar psychosis or anything it

927
00:37:58,790 --> 00:37:56,160
was been pretty even keeled

928
00:38:00,170 --> 00:37:58,800
um but this

929
00:38:02,930 --> 00:38:00,180
um

930
00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:02,940
really do really demarcated the

931
00:38:06,650 --> 00:38:05,040
difference between prepositional

932
00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:06,660
knowledge which I had had on this idea

933
00:38:10,390 --> 00:38:08,400
like I'd read on it and learned about it

934
00:38:14,089 --> 00:38:10,400
and participatory knowledge or like

935
00:38:15,829 --> 00:38:14,099
agnostic understanding of these ideas of

936
00:38:16,430 --> 00:38:15,839
non-duality

937
00:38:19,310 --> 00:38:16,440
um

938
00:38:21,470 --> 00:38:19,320
an interconnectedness and uh it pretty

939
00:38:23,630 --> 00:38:21,480
fundamentally shifted my world view but

940
00:38:25,790 --> 00:38:23,640
not in a traumatic or disruptive way it

941
00:38:27,770 --> 00:38:25,800
was more kind of like going like oh okay

942
00:38:29,630 --> 00:38:27,780
I guess this is just how things are it

943
00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:29,640
doesn't really change too much I still

944
00:38:33,470 --> 00:38:31,440
have to pay my bills but now I just have

945
00:38:35,390 --> 00:38:33,480
a lot more space in my life for doing

946
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:35,400
weird [\h__\h] like breath work Retreats and

947
00:38:41,450 --> 00:38:38,640
meditation Retreats and stuff

948
00:38:43,609 --> 00:38:41,460
you should uh try stopping to pay your

949
00:38:49,130 --> 00:38:43,619
bills and uh then think things will get

950
00:38:54,589 --> 00:38:50,870
psychedelic experience completely

951
00:38:58,849 --> 00:38:56,410
yeah definitely

952
00:39:01,130 --> 00:38:58,859
they're all these kinds of like uh

953
00:39:05,329 --> 00:39:01,140
experiences that when they fall outside

954
00:39:07,130 --> 00:39:05,339
of our uh world view we have we've come

955
00:39:09,109 --> 00:39:07,140
up with something new or like we

956
00:39:10,790 --> 00:39:09,119
categorize it in something we know or it

957
00:39:12,530 --> 00:39:10,800
sort of gets there's a tendency to

958
00:39:15,470 --> 00:39:12,540
dismiss an observation if it doesn't

959
00:39:17,630 --> 00:39:15,480
conform to a world view

960
00:39:20,450 --> 00:39:17,640
Sarah could you talk a little bit about

961
00:39:22,790 --> 00:39:20,460
what benefit there is as science

962
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:22,800
communicators like you've specifically

963
00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:24,720
uh as a journalist folks got science

964
00:39:29,569 --> 00:39:26,880
stuff what what value is there in

965
00:39:31,310 --> 00:39:29,579
labeling these things for people and

966
00:39:33,530 --> 00:39:31,320
could you talk a little bit about how

967
00:39:34,670 --> 00:39:33,540
like if there's any if there's an

968
00:39:36,069 --> 00:39:34,680
absence of

969
00:39:38,630 --> 00:39:36,079
information

970
00:39:40,490 --> 00:39:38,640
and people are sort of left to sort of

971
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:40,500
come up with things is there a danger

972
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:43,680
there or is that the heart of Mystery

973
00:39:48,530 --> 00:39:46,650
hmm

974
00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:48,540
[Music]

975
00:39:53,630 --> 00:39:50,460
um for the labeling question do you mean

976
00:39:55,310 --> 00:39:53,640
labeling UFOs or just labeling anomalies

977
00:39:57,349 --> 00:39:55,320
of various sources well both either way

978
00:39:59,390 --> 00:39:57,359
yes

979
00:40:02,810 --> 00:39:59,400
um yeah

980
00:40:04,010 --> 00:40:02,820
when you do give a label to anything to

981
00:40:06,710 --> 00:40:04,020
like

982
00:40:08,329 --> 00:40:06,720
when you label something UFO you're

983
00:40:09,829 --> 00:40:08,339
putting it into even though it's a

984
00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:09,839
category unidentified we don't

985
00:40:14,329 --> 00:40:11,280
understand whatever it's still a

986
00:40:17,329 --> 00:40:14,339
category and so people talk about UFOs

987
00:40:19,250 --> 00:40:17,339
as if they're like what are UFOs as if

988
00:40:20,569 --> 00:40:19,260
there's like one thing that they are and

989
00:40:22,250 --> 00:40:20,579
so I think it becomes kind of

990
00:40:23,870 --> 00:40:22,260
psychologically limiting what I think

991
00:40:25,849 --> 00:40:23,880
it's pretty clear

992
00:40:27,290 --> 00:40:25,859
um no matter what the most out there

993
00:40:30,109 --> 00:40:27,300
explanation is for them that there's

994
00:40:32,030 --> 00:40:30,119
also probably 5 000 other explanations

995
00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:32,040
for a lot of them and so when you make a

996
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:35,040
category keep people's it's just human

997
00:40:40,970 --> 00:40:39,119
that you're um that your brain Narrows

998
00:40:44,690 --> 00:40:40,980
and I was actually researching a little

999
00:40:46,430 --> 00:40:44,700
while ago a um some atmospheric sciences

1000
00:40:48,710 --> 00:40:46,440
to have done that just in science not in

1001
00:40:51,650 --> 00:40:48,720
the UFOs like there was this anomalous

1002
00:40:53,390 --> 00:40:51,660
weird thing going on with the northern

1003
00:40:55,490 --> 00:40:53,400
lights and everybody who was a

1004
00:40:58,069 --> 00:40:55,500
professional atmospheric scientist was

1005
00:40:59,750 --> 00:40:58,079
like oh you know that's just like a a

1006
00:41:01,310 --> 00:40:59,760
weird way of seeing this particular

1007
00:41:03,530 --> 00:41:01,320
phenomenon that we can categorize

1008
00:41:07,130 --> 00:41:03,540
categorize it just looks weird right

1009
00:41:09,290 --> 00:41:07,140
there and it was it took amateur Aurora

1010
00:41:10,970 --> 00:41:09,300
photographers being like no actually we

1011
00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:10,980
look at this all the time and this is

1012
00:41:13,790 --> 00:41:12,480
different it doesn't fit into your

1013
00:41:15,650 --> 00:41:13,800
category it took them a while to

1014
00:41:17,930 --> 00:41:15,660
convince the professional scientists so

1015
00:41:19,849 --> 00:41:17,940
I think like all over the place

1016
00:41:21,109 --> 00:41:19,859
um it's just human nature to try to try

1017
00:41:22,970 --> 00:41:21,119
to fit things

1018
00:41:25,609 --> 00:41:22,980
um and limit your

1019
00:41:27,410 --> 00:41:25,619
um View and now that I've talked for 45

1020
00:41:29,750 --> 00:41:27,420
seconds I've forgotten the second part

1021
00:41:31,069 --> 00:41:29,760
of the question which was can you

1022
00:41:32,870 --> 00:41:31,079
refresh me on the second part of the

1023
00:41:34,550 --> 00:41:32,880
question oh my goodness I didn't have it

1024
00:41:37,550 --> 00:41:34,560
written down what anybody else remember

1025
00:41:39,770 --> 00:41:37,560
what I said I'm waiting a few people it

1026
00:41:46,150 --> 00:41:39,780
was good it was good it was good [\h__\h]

1027
00:41:53,109 --> 00:41:48,890
yeah something good I know that much but

1028
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:54,530
oh yeah I was talking about

1029
00:41:59,329 --> 00:41:57,119
communicators yes yes uh I was wondering

1030
00:42:01,010 --> 00:41:59,339
if like we or you know obviously we're

1031
00:42:03,589 --> 00:42:01,020
professionals as a science Communicator

1032
00:42:06,349 --> 00:42:03,599
do you think there's value in trying to

1033
00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:06,359
provide explanations or to sort of say

1034
00:42:10,130 --> 00:42:07,680
we don't know we don't know kind of like

1035
00:42:12,770 --> 00:42:10,140
a more debunker style thing is there a

1036
00:42:14,870 --> 00:42:12,780
benefit to one or the other

1037
00:42:19,390 --> 00:42:14,880
hmm

1038
00:42:27,589 --> 00:42:24,290
I think that uh

1039
00:42:29,870 --> 00:42:27,599
debunking has never gotten people a very

1040
00:42:31,790 --> 00:42:29,880
long way with the exact crowd that

1041
00:42:33,950 --> 00:42:31,800
they're trying to convince in general

1042
00:42:34,609 --> 00:42:33,960
giving someone

1043
00:42:37,670 --> 00:42:34,619
um

1044
00:42:39,950 --> 00:42:37,680
either a strict explanation or saying we

1045
00:42:43,250 --> 00:42:39,960
don't know when they think they know has

1046
00:42:45,770 --> 00:42:43,260
never it uh does not work very well

1047
00:42:47,510 --> 00:42:45,780
usually it's usually the people who are

1048
00:42:49,250 --> 00:42:47,520
already on your side who think they

1049
00:42:51,410 --> 00:42:49,260
don't know or who think they agree with

1050
00:42:52,310 --> 00:42:51,420
your explanation who

1051
00:42:55,670 --> 00:42:52,320
um

1052
00:42:57,770 --> 00:42:55,680
who will receive that information I

1053
00:43:01,970 --> 00:42:57,780
guess and so

1054
00:43:04,970 --> 00:43:01,980
um I think but what is the better way

1055
00:43:08,030 --> 00:43:04,980
um I mean I think uh not necessarily

1056
00:43:11,450 --> 00:43:08,040
speaking strictly to UFOs but to to

1057
00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:11,460
um lots of kind of touchy topics trying

1058
00:43:17,930 --> 00:43:14,640
to understand uh where the people you're

1059
00:43:21,109 --> 00:43:17,940
trying to communicate to are coming from

1060
00:43:22,849 --> 00:43:21,119
including information that um doesn't

1061
00:43:23,809 --> 00:43:22,859
necessarily like validate their beliefs

1062
00:43:25,490 --> 00:43:23,819
if you don't believe them but

1063
00:43:27,829 --> 00:43:25,500
demonstrates that you understand where

1064
00:43:30,950 --> 00:43:27,839
they're coming from you respect it and

1065
00:43:32,510 --> 00:43:30,960
hear something else to consider is a way

1066
00:43:35,930 --> 00:43:32,520
to do it maybe that's a little bit of

1067
00:43:38,450 --> 00:43:35,940
both sidesism uh in in writing but I

1068
00:43:40,910 --> 00:43:38,460
mean I think a lot of times uh science

1069
00:43:42,770 --> 00:43:40,920
communicators rush to explain things

1070
00:43:45,890 --> 00:43:42,780
they cannot

1071
00:43:49,010 --> 00:43:45,900
um explain or um

1072
00:43:50,690 --> 00:43:49,020
portray science and scientific inquiry

1073
00:43:53,329 --> 00:43:50,700
with more certainty than there actually

1074
00:43:55,609 --> 00:43:53,339
is like I think actually the pandemic

1075
00:43:57,950 --> 00:43:55,619
has shown a lot of people that uh

1076
00:44:00,170 --> 00:43:57,960
science is a process and scientists are

1077
00:44:02,510 --> 00:44:00,180
fallible and get things wrong and things

1078
00:44:04,190 --> 00:44:02,520
change as they investigate and I think

1079
00:44:05,690 --> 00:44:04,200
lots of news articles or things about

1080
00:44:08,329 --> 00:44:05,700
science are always just saying this is

1081
00:44:11,450 --> 00:44:08,339
what it is this is what science says and

1082
00:44:13,010 --> 00:44:11,460
um we also thought that in 1695 and we

1083
00:44:14,450 --> 00:44:13,020
were super wrongs about a lot of that

1084
00:44:19,309 --> 00:44:14,460
stuff so we're probably super wrong

1085
00:44:22,790 --> 00:44:21,290
yeah that's something

1086
00:44:24,710 --> 00:44:22,800
um I mean

1087
00:44:26,270 --> 00:44:24,720
one of the things I keep coming back to

1088
00:44:28,490 --> 00:44:26,280
you and and just in the interest of

1089
00:44:31,130 --> 00:44:28,500
transparency like I only have a few

1090
00:44:33,650 --> 00:44:31,140
months background in ufology in a strict

1091
00:44:36,290 --> 00:44:33,660
sense like I come over from like a maybe

1092
00:44:37,970 --> 00:44:36,300
like high strangeness kind of conspiracy

1093
00:44:38,809 --> 00:44:37,980
woo-woo background

1094
00:44:42,109 --> 00:44:38,819
um

1095
00:44:46,130 --> 00:44:42,119
but I'm constantly struck by

1096
00:44:47,569 --> 00:44:46,140
um this sense that our understanding and

1097
00:44:50,270 --> 00:44:47,579
measurement and interpretation of

1098
00:44:52,010 --> 00:44:50,280
reality through the scientific method

1099
00:44:53,870 --> 00:44:52,020
um is

1100
00:44:56,750 --> 00:44:53,880
um due for something of an overhaul

1101
00:44:59,030 --> 00:44:56,760
either methodologically or in terms of

1102
00:45:01,790 --> 00:44:59,040
like how we construct academic research

1103
00:45:04,490 --> 00:45:01,800
with peer review things like that and I

1104
00:45:06,370 --> 00:45:04,500
say that because I feel like

1105
00:45:08,750 --> 00:45:06,380
there's

1106
00:45:10,370 --> 00:45:08,760
like one of my favorite things one of my

1107
00:45:12,050 --> 00:45:10,380
friends said is that the scientific

1108
00:45:14,030 --> 00:45:12,060
method is the worst of all possible

1109
00:45:16,309 --> 00:45:14,040
methods except for all the others right

1110
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:16,319
where there's this idea that like it is

1111
00:45:22,130 --> 00:45:19,440
in some sense insufficient or

1112
00:45:24,349 --> 00:45:22,140
um simply a model that we use to frame

1113
00:45:26,690 --> 00:45:24,359
exploration and understanding but it is

1114
00:45:29,569 --> 00:45:26,700
not a perfect model

1115
00:45:32,510 --> 00:45:29,579
um and I think Thomas [\h__\h] kind of talks

1116
00:45:35,329 --> 00:45:32,520
about this in uh his book on scientific

1117
00:45:36,950 --> 00:45:35,339
revolutions about how like what leads to

1118
00:45:38,930 --> 00:45:36,960
Scientific Revolution is the

1119
00:45:41,930 --> 00:45:38,940
accumulation of things that no longer

1120
00:45:44,930 --> 00:45:41,940
fit into the extant Paradigm

1121
00:45:47,270 --> 00:45:44,940
um and I I keep kind of returning to

1122
00:45:49,490 --> 00:45:47,280
this idea that just how we do science

1123
00:45:51,530 --> 00:45:49,500
our methodology

1124
00:45:52,790 --> 00:45:51,540
um similar to like how you would change

1125
00:46:00,050 --> 00:45:52,800
or

1126
00:46:02,990 --> 00:46:00,060
scientific methodology requires some

1127
00:46:05,510 --> 00:46:03,000
kind of refactoring or revisiting

1128
00:46:08,450 --> 00:46:05,520
um in order to start incorporating some

1129
00:46:10,550 --> 00:46:08,460
of these more like liminal subjects that

1130
00:46:14,690 --> 00:46:10,560
otherwise fall outside the conventional

1131
00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:41,990
foreign

1132
00:46:45,950 --> 00:46:44,630
quote one of the actually nuclear

1133
00:46:47,510 --> 00:46:45,960
weapons scientists who I was

1134
00:46:51,290 --> 00:46:47,520
interviewing for the the book I have

1135
00:46:53,569 --> 00:46:51,300
been working on not a UFO person who is

1136
00:46:55,309 --> 00:46:53,579
um he's a cosmologist so studies like

1137
00:46:56,809 --> 00:46:55,319
the the beginning and the nature of the

1138
00:46:58,849 --> 00:46:56,819
universe and they're always like the

1139
00:47:00,710 --> 00:46:58,859
most woo of all the astronomers I think

1140
00:47:03,829 --> 00:47:00,720
because they're way out there where we

1141
00:47:06,170 --> 00:47:03,839
don't really know anything and he had

1142
00:47:06,770 --> 00:47:06,180
kind of gotten into

1143
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:06,780
um

1144
00:47:10,550 --> 00:47:08,880
uh reading lots of kinds of philosophy

1145
00:47:12,170 --> 00:47:10,560
and trying to understand like how the

1146
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:12,180
universe started what was the nature of

1147
00:47:15,530 --> 00:47:13,920
Life blah blah and was trying to

1148
00:47:17,690 --> 00:47:15,540
understand it through ART and music and

1149
00:47:20,089 --> 00:47:17,700
philosophy and he was not any good at

1150
00:47:21,589 --> 00:47:20,099
those but he was good at science and

1151
00:47:24,230 --> 00:47:21,599
eventually he was like you know science

1152
00:47:25,309 --> 00:47:24,240
is not the only way of understanding the

1153
00:47:27,470 --> 00:47:25,319
world

1154
00:47:28,970 --> 00:47:27,480
um these other ways are also very valid

1155
00:47:31,670 --> 00:47:28,980
but science is the one that makes the

1156
00:47:34,250 --> 00:47:31,680
most sense to me and I think that that's

1157
00:47:35,930 --> 00:47:34,260
something that a lot of scientists not

1158
00:47:38,329 --> 00:47:35,940
all scientists but a lot of them don't

1159
00:47:40,010 --> 00:47:38,339
they just can't wrap their minds around

1160
00:47:42,050 --> 00:47:40,020
it that their way of doing things is

1161
00:47:44,089 --> 00:47:42,060
like a way of doing it but not

1162
00:47:46,430 --> 00:47:44,099
necessarily the best and

1163
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:46,440
has probably left out a lot and clearly

1164
00:47:51,589 --> 00:47:49,680
also has a lot to learn like the vast

1165
00:47:53,329 --> 00:47:51,599
majority of the universe is made up of

1166
00:47:55,430 --> 00:47:53,339
stuff that we call dark matter and dark

1167
00:47:57,230 --> 00:47:55,440
energy that we don't understand and it's

1168
00:47:59,690 --> 00:47:57,240
just like you know

1169
00:48:02,510 --> 00:47:59,700
um 90 whatever percent of it and uh like

1170
00:48:04,190 --> 00:48:02,520
science hasn't figured that out and so

1171
00:48:06,589 --> 00:48:04,200
um I just think that there are other

1172
00:48:08,329 --> 00:48:06,599
ways of of knowing about the world and

1173
00:48:12,170 --> 00:48:08,339
maybe figuring out how to incorporate

1174
00:48:14,510 --> 00:48:12,180
those more with Sciences a direction

1175
00:48:17,210 --> 00:48:14,520
things could head also peer review sex

1176
00:48:18,130 --> 00:48:17,220
and uh that's I agree with you Leah on

1177
00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:18,140
that

1178
00:48:22,730 --> 00:48:20,640
I like don't want to tell you if people

1179
00:48:24,290 --> 00:48:22,740
about the reproducibility crisis because

1180
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:24,300
they feel like then they will never

1181
00:48:29,390 --> 00:48:26,640
accept anything ever again that comes

1182
00:48:32,930 --> 00:48:29,400
out of an academic article

1183
00:48:35,390 --> 00:48:32,940
too long yeah Louise uh could you talk

1184
00:48:38,809 --> 00:48:35,400
through a few comments at that as a

1185
00:48:38,819 --> 00:48:43,790
um answer for your people Louis

1186
00:48:47,089 --> 00:48:45,530
well I mean you tell me about the

1187
00:48:49,069 --> 00:48:47,099
liminal subject

1188
00:48:51,130 --> 00:48:49,079
um do you think well let me throw a

1189
00:48:53,690 --> 00:48:51,140
question back at you Leo and also Sarah

1190
00:48:55,670 --> 00:48:53,700
what you think um

1191
00:48:57,410 --> 00:48:55,680
are you is it like a hankering for a

1192
00:49:00,170 --> 00:48:57,420
different kind of um

1193
00:49:02,510 --> 00:49:00,180
substance if you'd like like uh spirit

1194
00:49:04,790 --> 00:49:02,520
stuff because you could you could talk

1195
00:49:07,010 --> 00:49:04,800
about um

1196
00:49:08,870 --> 00:49:07,020
you know religious experiences or the

1197
00:49:12,109 --> 00:49:08,880
numinous in terms of emergent properties

1198
00:49:13,970 --> 00:49:12,119
of um complex systems are either nervous

1199
00:49:16,130 --> 00:49:13,980
system and

1200
00:49:18,890 --> 00:49:16,140
you know how that fits into um

1201
00:49:21,050 --> 00:49:18,900
Society Etc but um

1202
00:49:23,329 --> 00:49:21,060
at the end of it is it like a a

1203
00:49:25,730 --> 00:49:23,339
hankering for

1204
00:49:27,950 --> 00:49:25,740
uh like a spirit realm something which

1205
00:49:29,089 --> 00:49:27,960
is made of something non-physic like

1206
00:49:31,250 --> 00:49:29,099
what does that even mean to say

1207
00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:31,260
something is made uh made of something

1208
00:49:35,990 --> 00:49:33,119
not non-physical

1209
00:49:42,109 --> 00:49:36,000
like but is that is that really like the

1210
00:49:45,530 --> 00:49:43,670
well Sarah

1211
00:49:48,250 --> 00:49:45,540
no I was going to say you have to go

1212
00:49:51,589 --> 00:49:48,260
first you're running the show

1213
00:49:53,150 --> 00:49:51,599
age before Beauty I'll talk first okay

1214
00:49:55,490 --> 00:49:53,160
so one second I want to call out a

1215
00:49:58,010 --> 00:49:55,500
comment from an audience member who's

1216
00:50:01,370 --> 00:49:58,020
upset that I called them UFO people my

1217
00:50:04,010 --> 00:50:01,380
dude I say UFO people as if I too am not

1218
00:50:05,410 --> 00:50:04,020
a UFO person I am also definitely a UFO

1219
00:50:08,510 --> 00:50:05,420
person yeah

1220
00:50:11,089 --> 00:50:08,520
like I go to conferences and I pay a lot

1221
00:50:13,849 --> 00:50:11,099
of Earth dollars to attack

1222
00:50:17,750 --> 00:50:13,859
I am definitely a UFO person

1223
00:50:20,089 --> 00:50:17,760
um yeah so so Louis I'm going to answer

1224
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:20,099
your question with

1225
00:50:24,650 --> 00:50:22,800
a standard discursive response that

1226
00:50:28,490 --> 00:50:24,660
doesn't exactly answer it but hopefully

1227
00:50:30,170 --> 00:50:28,500
we'll kind of typical I know I'm made

1228
00:50:32,630 --> 00:50:30,180
for politics man

1229
00:50:34,430 --> 00:50:32,640
um so like I think a lot about uh

1230
00:50:36,650 --> 00:50:34,440
Bernard or calstrips meaning an

1231
00:50:39,109 --> 00:50:36,660
absurdity and the reason I bring this

1232
00:50:41,510 --> 00:50:39,119
book up repeatedly is because

1233
00:50:43,730 --> 00:50:41,520
what he basically starts the premise he

1234
00:50:47,630 --> 00:50:43,740
builds on is that

1235
00:50:49,370 --> 00:50:47,640
um strongly objective reality doesn't

1236
00:50:50,990 --> 00:50:49,380
really exist we have weekly objective

1237
00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:51,000
reality and then we also likely have

1238
00:50:58,730 --> 00:50:55,920
some kind of idealism right and he uses

1239
00:51:00,710 --> 00:50:58,740
this kind of three-prong approach of

1240
00:51:02,030 --> 00:51:00,720
strong and weak objectivity and then

1241
00:51:06,530 --> 00:51:02,040
idealism

1242
00:51:07,730 --> 00:51:06,540
is the entree into talking about how

1243
00:51:10,370 --> 00:51:07,740
um

1244
00:51:12,829 --> 00:51:10,380
it's a modern convention to make this

1245
00:51:15,410 --> 00:51:12,839
extremely Stark delineation between

1246
00:51:18,170 --> 00:51:15,420
fiction and non-fiction or truth in fact

1247
00:51:19,970 --> 00:51:18,180
and stories in myth

1248
00:51:20,690 --> 00:51:19,980
and that

1249
00:51:23,870 --> 00:51:20,700
um

1250
00:51:25,010 --> 00:51:23,880
he he draws upon sort of these uh I

1251
00:51:26,870 --> 00:51:25,020
guess like

1252
00:51:29,690 --> 00:51:26,880
and I'm trying to be mindful of kind of

1253
00:51:31,730 --> 00:51:29,700
like the weird like mysticism we can

1254
00:51:34,190 --> 00:51:31,740
create in talking about indigenous or

1255
00:51:37,069 --> 00:51:34,200
traditional cultures but this idea that

1256
00:51:40,370 --> 00:51:37,079
there is this third space that sort of

1257
00:51:42,530 --> 00:51:40,380
exists between actual factual hard truth

1258
00:51:45,770 --> 00:51:42,540
and pure

1259
00:51:47,809 --> 00:51:45,780
um like imagination and fiction and that

1260
00:51:50,210 --> 00:51:47,819
it's in this third space that our

1261
00:51:52,970 --> 00:51:50,220
experiences with The Uncanny or the

1262
00:51:57,890 --> 00:51:52,980
strange or the numinous occur and that

1263
00:52:00,049 --> 00:51:57,900
we are lacking these narratives now in

1264
00:52:02,569 --> 00:52:00,059
this Ultra materialist and scientific

1265
00:52:04,490 --> 00:52:02,579
world like we don't have narratives to

1266
00:52:07,309 --> 00:52:04,500
talk about that space in a way that

1267
00:52:10,010 --> 00:52:07,319
gives them like that does Justice to

1268
00:52:11,390 --> 00:52:10,020
their complexity into their meaning

1269
00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:11,400
um and I think like someone who kind of

1270
00:52:15,410 --> 00:52:13,200
gets into that like in a western sense

1271
00:52:18,770 --> 00:52:15,420
is like young like he definitely sees

1272
00:52:22,010 --> 00:52:18,780
and understands the value of um excuse

1273
00:52:24,109 --> 00:52:22,020
me of myth and myth as truth even if

1274
00:52:24,970 --> 00:52:24,119
it's not actually fact

1275
00:52:28,270 --> 00:52:24,980
um

1276
00:52:30,349 --> 00:52:28,280
but you know I I do think that you know

1277
00:52:32,030 --> 00:52:30,359
if I want to go really off the ranch

1278
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:32,040
here I think a whole lot of the subject

1279
00:52:37,370 --> 00:52:35,040
ties into like The Meta crisis and the

1280
00:52:39,109 --> 00:52:37,380
meaning crisis that people have where we

1281
00:52:40,849 --> 00:52:39,119
have such core narratives for sense

1282
00:52:42,890 --> 00:52:40,859
making and for understanding our world

1283
00:52:45,349 --> 00:52:42,900
and for making sense of the great and

1284
00:52:47,270 --> 00:52:45,359
terrible things that happened to us

1285
00:52:49,849 --> 00:52:47,280
um that

1286
00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:49,859
um we have kind of No Escape valve or

1287
00:52:53,569 --> 00:52:51,839
pressure valve that we can explore those

1288
00:52:55,309 --> 00:52:53,579
things through and construct like

1289
00:52:59,450 --> 00:52:55,319
Frameworks for understanding them and

1290
00:53:03,349 --> 00:53:01,549
yeah I think I think what I was going to

1291
00:53:05,089 --> 00:53:03,359
say kind of aligns with that last part

1292
00:53:07,910 --> 00:53:05,099
of what Leo was saying

1293
00:53:09,410 --> 00:53:07,920
um which is that no matter what realm

1294
00:53:12,710 --> 00:53:09,420
you're coming from or how you go about

1295
00:53:15,349 --> 00:53:12,720
it I think all humans primary Pursuits

1296
00:53:17,870 --> 00:53:15,359
are about searching for meaning and also

1297
00:53:20,750 --> 00:53:17,880
searching for whatever their version of

1298
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:20,760
the numenesis including like you know

1299
00:53:25,010 --> 00:53:23,040
particle physicists messing around with

1300
00:53:27,470 --> 00:53:25,020
particle accelerators and they are

1301
00:53:29,510 --> 00:53:27,480
trying to both you know solve a mystery

1302
00:53:31,250 --> 00:53:29,520
and find a mystery and understand

1303
00:53:33,349 --> 00:53:31,260
something about the world and find

1304
00:53:36,290 --> 00:53:33,359
something that is their own sort of

1305
00:53:38,450 --> 00:53:36,300
higher power and cosmologists like the

1306
00:53:40,370 --> 00:53:38,460
guy I talk to is you know he's

1307
00:53:42,470 --> 00:53:40,380
ultimately trying to investigate like

1308
00:53:46,670 --> 00:53:42,480
what am I doing here how did I get here

1309
00:53:50,750 --> 00:53:46,680
and I kind of think that all of it um uh

1310
00:53:53,210 --> 00:53:50,760
science and spirituality and um all of

1311
00:53:55,790 --> 00:53:53,220
it is just uh looking for that

1312
00:53:57,470 --> 00:53:55,800
connection to the universe in some way

1313
00:53:59,089 --> 00:53:57,480
in some way to make sense of our

1314
00:54:01,430 --> 00:53:59,099
existence on Earth whether that's

1315
00:54:04,190 --> 00:54:01,440
through particle accelerators or UFOs or

1316
00:54:08,089 --> 00:54:04,200
both I'm sure there's some UFO people

1317
00:54:14,930 --> 00:54:10,670
what about have you heard of um Wilfred

1318
00:54:19,250 --> 00:54:14,940
sellers um manifest image

1319
00:54:23,870 --> 00:54:21,950
Consciousness which are um we take them

1320
00:54:25,910 --> 00:54:23,880
to be real but um

1321
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:25,920
they might not be real in an absolute

1322
00:54:31,549 --> 00:54:29,280
objective sense like uh words right we

1323
00:54:33,890 --> 00:54:31,559
think about words but do words really

1324
00:54:36,349 --> 00:54:33,900
exist okay but they they exist in some

1325
00:54:39,170 --> 00:54:36,359
sense in how we use them because they're

1326
00:54:42,230 --> 00:54:39,180
so Central to our our cognition and our

1327
00:54:44,990 --> 00:54:42,240
way of organizing our reality that they

1328
00:54:46,609 --> 00:54:45,000
do take on a kind of actual reality it's

1329
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:46,619
just that not in the same sense as maybe

1330
00:54:57,589 --> 00:54:47,760
a

1331
00:55:00,170 --> 00:54:57,599
book um

1332
00:55:00,890 --> 00:55:00,180
what's it called um what his latest book

1333
00:55:04,309 --> 00:55:00,900
about

1334
00:55:07,490 --> 00:55:04,319
um his theory of um consciousness

1335
00:55:09,410 --> 00:55:07,500
um talks about the Manifest image and um

1336
00:55:11,750 --> 00:55:09,420
tries to put it like in a mimetic

1337
00:55:12,950 --> 00:55:11,760
perspective like he's a big defender of

1338
00:55:15,230 --> 00:55:12,960
memes

1339
00:55:17,030 --> 00:55:15,240
uh which is a pretty controversial idea

1340
00:55:20,510 --> 00:55:17,040
but um

1341
00:55:23,630 --> 00:55:20,520
I'm just trying to locate what you and

1342
00:55:25,069 --> 00:55:23,640
uh Leah just said but um they you could

1343
00:55:27,950 --> 00:55:25,079
actually

1344
00:55:30,109 --> 00:55:27,960
just you know explore these um things in

1345
00:55:34,250 --> 00:55:30,119
a

1346
00:55:35,930 --> 00:55:34,260
but uh

1347
00:55:37,549 --> 00:55:35,940
there could be attention

1348
00:55:39,710 --> 00:55:37,559
yeah and I think what I think like

1349
00:55:41,809 --> 00:55:39,720
people are starting to right like I harp

1350
00:55:43,549 --> 00:55:41,819
on Daniel Ingram all the time and his

1351
00:55:44,750 --> 00:55:43,559
emergent phenomenology research

1352
00:55:46,250 --> 00:55:44,760
Consortium

1353
00:55:47,990 --> 00:55:46,260
um like they're starting to get into

1354
00:55:49,549 --> 00:55:48,000
this with like this constellation of

1355
00:55:50,809 --> 00:55:49,559
pretty well regarded and respected

1356
00:55:53,270 --> 00:55:50,819
institutions like we're talking like

1357
00:55:56,270 --> 00:55:53,280
Harvard Oxford

1358
00:55:59,270 --> 00:55:56,280
MIT like you know big institutions that

1359
00:56:01,250 --> 00:55:59,280
are studying kind of the the strange and

1360
00:56:03,470 --> 00:56:01,260
uncanny um and then there's also a

1361
00:56:05,630 --> 00:56:03,480
smaller meditation focused org called

1362
00:56:07,490 --> 00:56:05,640
cheetah house that similarly does this

1363
00:56:09,530 --> 00:56:07,500
provides like studying and guidance

1364
00:56:12,589 --> 00:56:09,540
basically for distressed meditators

1365
00:56:14,329 --> 00:56:12,599
people who experience like psychiatric

1366
00:56:20,030 --> 00:56:14,339
disruption after going on a 10-day

1367
00:56:23,930 --> 00:56:22,370
but how does this um so I mean back to

1368
00:56:25,970 --> 00:56:23,940
UFOs though

1369
00:56:28,790 --> 00:56:25,980
um do you Sarah do you think that

1370
00:56:30,170 --> 00:56:28,800
there's a um Central meaning of the UFO

1371
00:56:32,210 --> 00:56:30,180
is it like um

1372
00:56:35,210 --> 00:56:32,220
if it does come from within us rather

1373
00:56:38,089 --> 00:56:35,220
than from outside of us um what is the

1374
00:56:40,250 --> 00:56:38,099
what is this psychological drive or the

1375
00:56:46,130 --> 00:56:40,260
semantic um

1376
00:56:52,190 --> 00:56:48,230
um

1377
00:56:53,089 --> 00:56:52,200
I mean I think in general

1378
00:56:58,549 --> 00:56:53,099
um

1379
00:57:01,069 --> 00:56:58,559
it is kind of like uh its own version of

1380
00:57:03,290 --> 00:57:01,079
a god something uh bigger and greater

1381
00:57:04,849 --> 00:57:03,300
than us that comes from a place we don't

1382
00:57:06,849 --> 00:57:04,859
understand even if you think that place

1383
00:57:09,109 --> 00:57:06,859
is like the world's greatest military

1384
00:57:12,290 --> 00:57:09,119
something you don't have access to

1385
00:57:15,170 --> 00:57:12,300
bigger than you beyond you

1386
00:57:17,510 --> 00:57:15,180
um and uh also a little bit more

1387
00:57:19,490 --> 00:57:17,520
advanced than you which is kind of you

1388
00:57:21,770 --> 00:57:19,500
know a god-like figure whether that's a

1389
00:57:23,809 --> 00:57:21,780
technological God or

1390
00:57:26,809 --> 00:57:23,819
um an alien god or what whatever you

1391
00:57:30,170 --> 00:57:26,819
have but just something that you can't

1392
00:57:32,750 --> 00:57:30,180
quite access but that suggests that

1393
00:57:35,329 --> 00:57:32,760
there is existence Beyond yours even if

1394
00:57:39,650 --> 00:57:35,339
it's just in the Pentagon

1395
00:57:41,930 --> 00:57:39,660
would that be therefore a case for um

1396
00:57:44,690 --> 00:57:41,940
or support for a case

1397
00:57:46,730 --> 00:57:44,700
of saying that uh UFOs are

1398
00:57:48,829 --> 00:57:46,740
a religious experience or would you say

1399
00:57:50,450 --> 00:57:48,839
that UFOs

1400
00:57:52,190 --> 00:57:50,460
and God

1401
00:57:57,290 --> 00:57:52,200
slash religion a part of a logic

1402
00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:01,609
say the the latter that um the the

1403
00:58:04,970 --> 00:58:03,359
meaning making and the searching for

1404
00:58:06,530 --> 00:58:04,980
something Beyond yourself is the larger

1405
00:58:08,270 --> 00:58:06,540
category and some people go about it

1406
00:58:09,710 --> 00:58:08,280
through traditional religion some people

1407
00:58:11,930 --> 00:58:09,720
go about it

1408
00:58:14,390 --> 00:58:11,940
um through meditation some through UFOs

1409
00:58:19,010 --> 00:58:14,400
and so I see them branching down in that

1410
00:58:22,970 --> 00:58:20,690
I've heard you mention

1411
00:58:25,370 --> 00:58:22,980
um kind of the appeal of ufology is that

1412
00:58:26,809 --> 00:58:25,380
it it's a Perpetual mystery right it

1413
00:58:29,569 --> 00:58:26,819
only takes the one

1414
00:58:32,630 --> 00:58:29,579
where do you see the UFO Community going

1415
00:58:35,990 --> 00:58:32,640
in the future if uh it is this Perpetual

1416
00:58:40,910 --> 00:58:36,000
mystery and we have no um easy answers

1417
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:44,329
um

1418
00:58:48,650 --> 00:58:46,549
beats itself in the general public

1419
00:58:51,589 --> 00:58:48,660
probably outside of

1420
00:58:54,410 --> 00:58:51,599
um wonderful shows like this interest

1421
00:58:57,170 --> 00:58:54,420
will probably Wane you know I feel like

1422
00:58:59,030 --> 00:58:57,180
we've been on in a UFO wave it has

1423
00:59:04,130 --> 00:58:59,040
crested

1424
00:59:06,490 --> 00:59:04,140
to go back down and then something will

1425
00:59:09,230 --> 00:59:06,500
happen that will unite more people again

1426
00:59:10,789 --> 00:59:09,240
back to being interested which I think

1427
00:59:14,569 --> 00:59:10,799
is something that is happening you know

1428
00:59:16,130 --> 00:59:14,579
at least since the the late 40s and so I

1429
00:59:19,670 --> 00:59:16,140
think it will

1430
00:59:21,770 --> 00:59:19,680
um yeah kind of kind of recede

1431
00:59:24,950 --> 00:59:21,780
um and I think it seems to me like there

1432
00:59:29,450 --> 00:59:24,960
is a weird split between the people

1433
00:59:31,010 --> 00:59:29,460
interested in uh materialist things like

1434
00:59:33,470 --> 00:59:31,020
obviously the most official interests

1435
00:59:34,010 --> 00:59:33,480
coming right now is from

1436
00:59:37,370 --> 00:59:34,020
um

1437
00:59:38,930 --> 00:59:37,380
the U.S Department of Defense which in

1438
00:59:41,750 --> 00:59:38,940
general I think is interested in them

1439
00:59:44,329 --> 00:59:41,760
from a very materialist perspective

1440
00:59:47,210 --> 00:59:44,339
um and then

1441
00:59:49,370 --> 00:59:47,220
um you know people who are seriously con

1442
00:59:52,670 --> 00:59:49,380
considering other much less

1443
00:59:55,250 --> 00:59:52,680
materialistic explanations and so I

1444
00:59:56,990 --> 00:59:55,260
think I'm not sure which group dominates

1445
00:59:59,390 --> 00:59:57,000
among the people who will

1446
01:00:03,109 --> 00:59:59,400
stay interested in UFOs during the the

1447
01:00:05,049 --> 01:00:03,119
dip in the wave but it seems like yeah I

1448
01:00:07,309 --> 01:00:05,059
don't know

1449
01:00:08,450 --> 01:00:07,319
you don't see disclosure in the future

1450
01:00:11,750 --> 01:00:08,460
then

1451
01:00:18,349 --> 01:00:11,760
um no I think disclosure like like

1452
01:00:23,450 --> 01:00:20,990
that would be cool I'd be Pro disclosure

1453
01:00:25,730 --> 01:00:23,460
but

1454
01:00:28,609 --> 01:00:25,740
what we um have you seen anything to

1455
01:00:34,789 --> 01:00:28,619
change your mind about what you wrote in

1456
01:00:39,890 --> 01:00:36,230
um

1457
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:39,900
no I don't think that I have although

1458
01:00:45,049 --> 01:00:41,760
it's possible

1459
01:00:49,309 --> 01:00:45,059
um you have seen more information than

1460
01:00:51,890 --> 01:00:49,319
me but um I think

1461
01:00:54,710 --> 01:00:51,900
um I mean they're very interesting very

1462
01:00:56,809 --> 01:00:54,720
highly publicized encounters and ones

1463
01:00:58,490 --> 01:00:56,819
where the

1464
01:01:00,349 --> 01:00:58,500
eyewitness accounts don't always match

1465
01:01:04,370 --> 01:01:00,359
the data we have or we don't have the

1466
01:01:05,809 --> 01:01:04,380
data and so they to me are still like a

1467
01:01:06,530 --> 01:01:05,819
lot of other

1468
01:01:08,510 --> 01:01:06,540
um

1469
01:01:10,250 --> 01:01:08,520
UFO sightings where you just if you

1470
01:01:12,049 --> 01:01:10,260
can't reconcile those two things you

1471
01:01:14,030 --> 01:01:12,059
can't learn that much about them if you

1472
01:01:15,650 --> 01:01:14,040
don't have enough what does mikwa say

1473
01:01:18,049 --> 01:01:15,660
the low information Zone even though

1474
01:01:19,309 --> 01:01:18,059
it's coming from a big thing Gathering a

1475
01:01:21,829 --> 01:01:19,319
lot of data I think they're in the low

1476
01:01:24,049 --> 01:01:21,839
information Zone and so both sides will

1477
01:01:26,170 --> 01:01:24,059
continue to interpret them the way that

1478
01:01:29,510 --> 01:01:26,180
suits their

1479
01:01:31,910 --> 01:01:29,520
uh you know uh

1480
01:01:33,829 --> 01:01:31,920
favorite explanation including me like I

1481
01:01:35,089 --> 01:01:33,839
just did so

1482
01:01:37,910 --> 01:01:35,099
um yeah I don't know what do you guys

1483
01:01:42,950 --> 01:01:37,920
think about those these days

1484
01:01:46,789 --> 01:01:44,289
I mean that's kind of

1485
01:01:49,970 --> 01:01:46,799
uncharitable but um I think it does sort

1486
01:01:52,309 --> 01:01:49,980
of capture the the possibility that

1487
01:01:54,530 --> 01:01:52,319
there could be events where lots of

1488
01:01:56,329 --> 01:01:54,540
contingencies come together and people

1489
01:01:59,390 --> 01:01:56,339
including human

1490
01:02:00,049 --> 01:01:59,400
um misperception and confabulation and

1491
01:02:02,870 --> 01:02:00,059
um

1492
01:02:04,670 --> 01:02:02,880
it could be like a sort of tail end of a

1493
01:02:07,910 --> 01:02:04,680
distribution but um

1494
01:02:09,770 --> 01:02:07,920
you know those things do happen and um

1495
01:02:13,309 --> 01:02:09,780
you know they're probably more likely

1496
01:02:20,450 --> 01:02:17,270
yeah definitely I have uh extremely

1497
01:02:23,569 --> 01:02:20,460
little faith in human perception I think

1498
01:02:26,030 --> 01:02:23,579
you know when when you say things like

1499
01:02:28,430 --> 01:02:26,040
um that anything about you know doubting

1500
01:02:30,589 --> 01:02:28,440
us a service member's encounter with

1501
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:30,599
something or their perception of it it

1502
01:02:35,089 --> 01:02:32,400
doesn't go well especially on the

1503
01:02:37,670 --> 01:02:35,099
internet you guys might have noticed and

1504
01:02:40,490 --> 01:02:37,680
um but like every every human brain is

1505
01:02:42,370 --> 01:02:40,500
just a human brain and visual system and

1506
01:02:45,349 --> 01:02:42,380
like it's not perfect and it's not

1507
01:02:47,630 --> 01:02:45,359
really it didn't evolve in circumstances

1508
01:02:49,370 --> 01:02:47,640
where things like that were happening

1509
01:02:50,930 --> 01:02:49,380
and so I don't I don't trust my own

1510
01:02:52,970 --> 01:02:50,940
perceptions I wouldn't trust my own

1511
01:02:57,710 --> 01:02:52,980
Perceptions in that and I

1512
01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,890
right

1513
01:03:08,510 --> 01:03:03,650
Leah are you offended by that

1514
01:03:11,210 --> 01:03:08,520
May offended by what by Sarah's um

1515
01:03:12,170 --> 01:03:11,220
skepticism about human perception and

1516
01:03:14,809 --> 01:03:12,180
it's

1517
01:03:18,049 --> 01:03:14,819
no dude like at the heart of what I

1518
01:03:19,670 --> 01:03:18,059
believe is that your mind basically

1519
01:03:26,870 --> 01:03:19,680
like

1520
01:03:31,549 --> 01:03:28,390
nice

1521
01:03:33,530 --> 01:03:31,559
Sarah you uh wrote an article for

1522
01:03:36,530 --> 01:03:33,540
Scientific American I believe it was

1523
01:03:38,329 --> 01:03:36,540
published in the summer uh 2022 if I

1524
01:03:40,670 --> 01:03:38,339
don't remember correctly um and the

1525
01:03:43,910 --> 01:03:40,680
title is something to the effect of um

1526
01:03:46,309 --> 01:03:43,920
the NASA UFO study uh might be more

1527
01:03:49,130 --> 01:03:46,319
about atmospheric science than like

1528
01:03:51,890 --> 01:03:49,140
aliens uh is that that's around the

1529
01:03:55,490 --> 01:03:51,900
title you know there's this long history

1530
01:03:57,170 --> 01:03:55,500
of like atmospheric uh stuff like um you

1531
01:03:59,750 --> 01:03:57,180
know we have all these accounts uh from

1532
01:04:01,730 --> 01:03:59,760
the Middle Ages of like Angel choirs and

1533
01:04:03,770 --> 01:04:01,740
stuff and then you find out that meteor

1534
01:04:05,690 --> 01:04:03,780
Fireball swarms are real so you know

1535
01:04:07,130 --> 01:04:05,700
can't identify any single one being that

1536
01:04:08,809 --> 01:04:07,140
but then it's like oh there's a physical

1537
01:04:10,370 --> 01:04:08,819
thing out there that people are seeing

1538
01:04:13,730 --> 01:04:10,380
and then you have the Virgin Mary

1539
01:04:16,430 --> 01:04:13,740
observations where it would seem to be

1540
01:04:17,930 --> 01:04:16,440
sort of a discreet type of thing but to

1541
01:04:19,370 --> 01:04:17,940
me anyway like maybe there isn't

1542
01:04:21,170 --> 01:04:19,380
something material actually occurring

1543
01:04:23,390 --> 01:04:21,180
there it's like a good I I don't know

1544
01:04:25,569 --> 01:04:23,400
though that being said so we have a long

1545
01:04:28,789 --> 01:04:25,579
history though in the Natural Sciences

1546
01:04:31,970 --> 01:04:28,799
these novel phenomena that are rare and

1547
01:04:34,309 --> 01:04:31,980
hard to describe and step outside of our

1548
01:04:35,690 --> 01:04:34,319
uh understanding of the world that we

1549
01:04:38,390 --> 01:04:35,700
have currently

1550
01:04:40,430 --> 01:04:38,400
do you think is there any uh Prospect or

1551
01:04:43,190 --> 01:04:40,440
something like that occurring in the UFO

1552
01:04:44,750 --> 01:04:43,200
subject and if it does happen do you

1553
01:04:47,329 --> 01:04:44,760
think it'll actually

1554
01:04:48,289 --> 01:04:47,339
have any effect on the conversation do

1555
01:04:51,829 --> 01:04:48,299
you think people will just sort of

1556
01:04:51,839 --> 01:04:54,710
um

1557
01:04:58,789 --> 01:04:56,390
so do you mean

1558
01:05:00,349 --> 01:04:58,799
um that you know that maybe UFO study

1559
01:05:02,809 --> 01:05:00,359
will turn up something that is the the

1560
01:05:04,910 --> 01:05:02,819
equivalent of the Virgin Mary appearing

1561
01:05:07,789 --> 01:05:04,920
and stuff or Angels coming down from on

1562
01:05:10,370 --> 01:05:07,799
High um just outside just uh the the

1563
01:05:12,589 --> 01:05:10,380
memos internally uh that uh John

1564
01:05:15,109 --> 01:05:12,599
Greenwald Jr has had Declassified and

1565
01:05:17,690 --> 01:05:15,119
published from the uh chairperson I

1566
01:05:21,410 --> 01:05:17,700
don't remember his name of the UFO UAP

1567
01:05:23,390 --> 01:05:21,420
study group out of NASA and he uh cites

1568
01:05:25,849 --> 01:05:23,400
um something called the skirmian which

1569
01:05:28,750 --> 01:05:25,859
is a kind of ball lightning uh within

1570
01:05:32,030 --> 01:05:28,760
those memos as one possible uh Pursuit

1571
01:05:34,190 --> 01:05:32,040
uh so you know like I guess I'm asking

1572
01:05:36,230 --> 01:05:34,200
like if if NASA concludes like oh there

1573
01:05:39,170 --> 01:05:36,240
actually are phenomena with the uh

1574
01:05:41,870 --> 01:05:39,180
features that JL and the heinek uh you

1575
01:05:44,030 --> 01:05:41,880
know summarized in 1972 if like the

1576
01:05:45,410 --> 01:05:44,040
observational features are the same and

1577
01:05:46,549 --> 01:05:45,420
they actually these three objects exist

1578
01:05:48,349 --> 01:05:46,559
they're just some kind of ball lightning

1579
01:05:49,609 --> 01:05:48,359
is anybody going to care about that is

1580
01:05:51,589 --> 01:05:49,619
that going to matter at all people just

1581
01:05:53,750 --> 01:05:51,599
gonna like ignore that move forward

1582
01:05:55,730 --> 01:05:53,760
um Campbell can we have one episode

1583
01:05:57,230 --> 01:05:55,740
where you don't prefer us your love for

1584
01:05:59,030 --> 01:05:57,240
ball lightning

1585
01:06:01,069 --> 01:05:59,040
well you know that's not possible

1586
01:06:02,809 --> 01:06:01,079
because me and Bob lightning are in love

1587
01:06:04,150 --> 01:06:02,819
we are getting married we're getting

1588
01:06:06,730 --> 01:06:04,160
married

1589
01:06:11,930 --> 01:06:06,740
it's electric

1590
01:06:16,309 --> 01:06:14,210
invited to the

1591
01:06:18,890 --> 01:06:16,319
one now we're eloping

1592
01:06:21,349 --> 01:06:18,900
the passionate affair

1593
01:06:23,580 --> 01:06:21,359
that's what you think

1594
01:06:23,870 --> 01:06:23,590
um I mean I think that that

1595
01:06:25,490 --> 01:06:23,880
[Music]

1596
01:06:27,470 --> 01:06:25,500
um

1597
01:06:29,990 --> 01:06:27,480
you know that it's possible that we'll

1598
01:06:32,690 --> 01:06:30,000
discover some new atmospheric phenomenon

1599
01:06:36,890 --> 01:06:32,700
under which we can group some amount of

1600
01:06:40,089 --> 01:06:36,900
UFO sightings and I think probably the

1601
01:06:44,750 --> 01:06:40,099
people who think that's the case already

1602
01:06:47,089 --> 01:06:44,760
will believe and internalized NASA's uh

1603
01:06:49,069 --> 01:06:47,099
explanation of that and the people who

1604
01:06:50,630 --> 01:06:49,079
do not will use whatever term NASA comes

1605
01:06:52,069 --> 01:06:50,640
up with the same way people use swamp

1606
01:06:55,430 --> 01:06:52,079
gas now

1607
01:06:57,230 --> 01:06:55,440
um just as a derogatory uh you know that

1608
01:06:58,730 --> 01:06:57,240
that was a [\h__\h] explanation that

1609
01:07:00,529 --> 01:06:58,740
someone gave so that they could explain

1610
01:07:02,270 --> 01:07:00,539
things away so that the public wouldn't

1611
01:07:05,029 --> 01:07:02,280
panic and so

1612
01:07:07,670 --> 01:07:05,039
um yeah I think it will probably be

1613
01:07:10,789 --> 01:07:07,680
split and I think there will also

1614
01:07:13,970 --> 01:07:10,799
always and probably rightly so be people

1615
01:07:15,829 --> 01:07:13,980
who say you know the panel was biased

1616
01:07:18,470 --> 01:07:15,839
they're hiding information we can't

1617
01:07:20,690 --> 01:07:18,480
trust their explanations and you know

1618
01:07:22,910 --> 01:07:20,700
they're human beings too probably some

1619
01:07:25,370 --> 01:07:22,920
of that is is true and so I think that

1620
01:07:29,750 --> 01:07:25,380
we will have a diversity of opinions on

1621
01:07:31,549 --> 01:07:29,760
whatever they find mostly I am not

1622
01:07:33,289 --> 01:07:31,559
confident that they have enough money to

1623
01:07:35,329 --> 01:07:33,299
go find anything I think they only have

1624
01:07:38,329 --> 01:07:35,339
a hundred thousand dollars to do their

1625
01:07:40,970 --> 01:07:38,339
whole study paying like whatever it was

1626
01:07:44,270 --> 01:07:40,980
12 or 15 people to be on the panel and

1627
01:07:46,490 --> 01:07:44,280
so I think they kind of jumps jumped on

1628
01:07:47,029 --> 01:07:46,500
the bandwagon for

1629
01:07:48,829 --> 01:07:47,039
um

1630
01:07:50,690 --> 01:07:48,839
unknown reasons but didn't actually

1631
01:07:53,870 --> 01:07:50,700
dedicate enough resources to find

1632
01:07:56,270 --> 01:07:53,880
something meaningful which I think is

1633
01:07:57,890 --> 01:07:56,280
kind of a shame but but I mean maybe

1634
01:07:59,329 --> 01:07:57,900
they produce a preliminary study and

1635
01:08:01,190 --> 01:07:59,339
then it's compelling enough that they do

1636
01:08:03,829 --> 01:08:01,200
more

1637
01:08:06,289 --> 01:08:03,839
would you be able to speak on uh I'm

1638
01:08:08,630 --> 01:08:06,299
very curious to hear your opinion on the

1639
01:08:11,210 --> 01:08:08,640
way that the US government has

1640
01:08:14,569 --> 01:08:11,220
communicated on this subject it is

1641
01:08:16,430 --> 01:08:14,579
mind-blowing to me it's so confusing we

1642
01:08:18,769 --> 01:08:16,440
know from you know the internal

1643
01:08:20,450 --> 01:08:18,779
briefings that intelligence agencies

1644
01:08:22,789 --> 01:08:20,460
don't want people to be believing in

1645
01:08:25,189 --> 01:08:22,799
conspiracy theories heavily discouraged

1646
01:08:27,349 --> 01:08:25,199
to think about this kind of things ufi

1647
01:08:29,209 --> 01:08:27,359
cite this frequently in a UFO people on

1648
01:08:30,650 --> 01:08:29,219
the same slides as like white

1649
01:08:32,570 --> 01:08:30,660
nationalists and stuff like they don't

1650
01:08:34,249 --> 01:08:32,580
want people to be engaging with this for

1651
01:08:36,890 --> 01:08:34,259
a variety of valid national security

1652
01:08:39,890 --> 01:08:36,900
reasons why do you think you know

1653
01:08:42,110 --> 01:08:39,900
President Obama former director of CIA

1654
01:08:44,209 --> 01:08:42,120
John Brennan like a former Director of

1655
01:08:45,530 --> 01:08:44,219
National Intelligence like all of these

1656
01:08:46,910 --> 01:08:45,540
people coming out being like oh these

1657
01:08:48,530 --> 01:08:46,920
things are zipping around in the sky we

1658
01:08:51,169 --> 01:08:48,540
don't know what they are why are they

1659
01:08:53,990 --> 01:08:51,179
doing this to us

1660
01:08:56,630 --> 01:08:54,000
yeah it is it is kind of like a very

1661
01:08:58,970 --> 01:08:56,640
confusing push and pull situation where

1662
01:09:00,289 --> 01:08:58,980
like when I was working on things and

1663
01:09:02,749 --> 01:09:00,299
trying to get information out of the

1664
01:09:04,550 --> 01:09:02,759
Pentagon they would phrase things so

1665
01:09:06,470 --> 01:09:04,560
vaguely and blandly that I could not

1666
01:09:07,789 --> 01:09:06,480
even understand the words that they were

1667
01:09:09,370 --> 01:09:07,799
saying like I was like that's not a

1668
01:09:11,209 --> 01:09:09,380
sentence that has no meaning

1669
01:09:13,130 --> 01:09:11,219
don't want to get what you're saying

1670
01:09:14,090 --> 01:09:13,140
wrong but it literally means nothing to

1671
01:09:17,150 --> 01:09:14,100
me

1672
01:09:21,050 --> 01:09:19,010
them out and and say that and then you

1673
01:09:21,890 --> 01:09:21,060
have you know certain Senators saying

1674
01:09:25,669 --> 01:09:21,900
things

1675
01:09:29,570 --> 01:09:25,679
um a few years ago and it's uh it seems

1676
01:09:32,090 --> 01:09:29,580
very polarized uh in that way and

1677
01:09:35,169 --> 01:09:32,100
um I mean I think the cumulative effect

1678
01:09:37,130 --> 01:09:35,179
of that is just to leave everyone

1679
01:09:41,390 --> 01:09:37,140
confused which I don't think is

1680
01:09:42,590 --> 01:09:41,400
necessarily the point on purpose exactly

1681
01:09:47,329 --> 01:09:42,600
but

1682
01:09:49,610 --> 01:09:47,339
um I think is the effect and

1683
01:09:53,450 --> 01:09:49,620
um I think I mean one of my biggest

1684
01:09:55,189 --> 01:09:53,460
takeaways from having uh you know I'm

1685
01:09:57,950 --> 01:09:55,199
lucky for my job that I just get to

1686
01:09:59,630 --> 01:09:57,960
write you know people people who do

1687
01:10:01,490 --> 01:09:59,640
things and ask them questions about

1688
01:10:05,330 --> 01:10:01,500
their lives I mean kind of like you guys

1689
01:10:06,530 --> 01:10:05,340
do here and just that at all levels of

1690
01:10:08,930 --> 01:10:06,540
government

1691
01:10:12,010 --> 01:10:08,940
the people are just people and people

1692
01:10:15,709 --> 01:10:12,020
have their own beliefs and sometimes

1693
01:10:20,149 --> 01:10:15,719
President Obama thinks you know UFOs are

1694
01:10:22,070 --> 01:10:20,159
are interesting or um uh you know who is

1695
01:10:24,530 --> 01:10:22,080
the the former director of the CIA

1696
01:10:26,209 --> 01:10:24,540
thinks the same thing and just like

1697
01:10:28,550 --> 01:10:26,219
people say what they want and think what

1698
01:10:30,770 --> 01:10:28,560
they want and then the official response

1699
01:10:33,950 --> 01:10:30,780
maybe tries to walk that back a little

1700
01:10:36,229 --> 01:10:33,960
bit but um then I think also that the

1701
01:10:37,669 --> 01:10:36,239
the current efforts

1702
01:10:39,169 --> 01:10:37,679
um and the efforts of the past few years

1703
01:10:42,110 --> 01:10:39,179
within the government

1704
01:10:45,950 --> 01:10:42,120
have been driven by

1705
01:10:47,990 --> 01:10:45,960
um it seems like to me uh outside forces

1706
01:10:50,510 --> 01:10:48,000
convincing people that this is a problem

1707
01:10:55,550 --> 01:10:50,520
and that a lot of those forces are you

1708
01:10:59,149 --> 01:10:55,560
know have deep beliefs uh in in the um

1709
01:11:01,189 --> 01:10:59,159
the non the non-drone nature of a lot of

1710
01:11:03,950 --> 01:11:01,199
UFOs and so that's kind of a push and

1711
01:11:07,070 --> 01:11:03,960
pull too like if we're having this

1712
01:11:10,070 --> 01:11:07,080
um very serious uh materialistic defense

1713
01:11:12,530 --> 01:11:10,080
discussion where we used extremely vague

1714
01:11:14,270 --> 01:11:12,540
language but it's

1715
01:11:15,890 --> 01:11:14,280
um driven fundamentally by people who've

1716
01:11:18,350 --> 01:11:15,900
had experiences and believe in them like

1717
01:11:20,390 --> 01:11:18,360
I think it's just um

1718
01:11:23,270 --> 01:11:20,400
do we curse them I already cursed on

1719
01:11:25,790 --> 01:11:23,280
this podcast do we do that so yeah yeah

1720
01:11:27,950 --> 01:11:25,800
you can swear yeah it's apparently not

1721
01:11:29,870 --> 01:11:27,960
good for the YouTube algorithm but okay

1722
01:11:34,790 --> 01:11:29,880
well no that's fine I don't want to mess

1723
01:11:38,930 --> 01:11:37,370
um yeah and I think uh I mean it kind of

1724
01:11:41,209 --> 01:11:38,940
goes along with the reason that a lot of

1725
01:11:42,709 --> 01:11:41,219
conspiracies are true which is just that

1726
01:11:44,930 --> 01:11:42,719
like government in the end is not

1727
01:11:46,610 --> 01:11:44,940
actually that competent or coordinated

1728
01:11:50,930 --> 01:11:46,620
and I think the same is true of their

1729
01:11:52,310 --> 01:11:50,940
communication responses but

1730
01:11:55,370 --> 01:11:52,320
yeah

1731
01:11:56,689 --> 01:11:55,380
go ahead I I I was just going to make a

1732
01:11:59,209 --> 01:11:56,699
quick comment about how one of the

1733
01:12:01,490 --> 01:11:59,219
things that his

1734
01:12:04,669 --> 01:12:01,500
um surprised me about the Dynamics

1735
01:12:07,189 --> 01:12:04,679
within the ufology community is

1736
01:12:09,410 --> 01:12:07,199
um the willingness to trust the

1737
01:12:13,010 --> 01:12:09,420
government will also

1738
01:12:14,570 --> 01:12:13,020
intention with the fact that I mean you

1739
01:12:16,669 --> 01:12:14,580
don't have to be a conspiracy theorist

1740
01:12:18,410 --> 01:12:16,679
to come up with dozens of examples of

1741
01:12:21,050 --> 01:12:18,420
why the government as an institution is

1742
01:12:23,930 --> 01:12:21,060
not a trustworthy institution and that's

1743
01:12:25,970 --> 01:12:23,940
not I I'm not saying that as to be clear

1744
01:12:28,189 --> 01:12:25,980
that is not Leah an anti-vaxxer

1745
01:12:30,649 --> 01:12:28,199
sentiment I'm pro-vaccines that's like

1746
01:12:34,189 --> 01:12:30,659
yeah like

1747
01:12:37,729 --> 01:12:34,199
um like the Tuskegee experiment and

1748
01:12:39,590 --> 01:12:37,739
crack cocaine in LA in the 80s and the

1749
01:12:41,750 --> 01:12:39,600
Black Panthers like that's the side that

1750
01:12:43,490 --> 01:12:41,760
I'm coming from this isn't it outrageous

1751
01:12:45,890 --> 01:12:43,500
that you have to make that distinction

1752
01:12:48,169 --> 01:12:45,900
oh yeah it's completely nuts like yeah

1753
01:12:50,149 --> 01:12:48,179
it is and that's like it's like I said

1754
01:12:51,590 --> 01:12:50,159
like I always have to tread carefully

1755
01:12:53,209 --> 01:12:51,600
because I always have to be clear to

1756
01:12:54,649 --> 01:12:53,219
people I'm not a conspiracy theorist in

1757
01:12:56,450 --> 01:12:54,659
the sense that like

1758
01:12:57,709 --> 01:12:56,460
like I don't believe in conspiracies

1759
01:12:59,330 --> 01:12:57,719
because you don't have to believe in

1760
01:13:00,770 --> 01:12:59,340
them to see that the government has a

1761
01:13:03,290 --> 01:13:00,780
long history of acting and pretty

1762
01:13:05,209 --> 01:13:03,300
violent and terrible ways and negligent

1763
01:13:07,250 --> 01:13:05,219
ways especially towards marginalized and

1764
01:13:08,330 --> 01:13:07,260
oppressed peoples in this country

1765
01:13:11,450 --> 01:13:08,340
um and so I'm always a little bit

1766
01:13:13,189 --> 01:13:11,460
surprised by the willingness

1767
01:13:15,530 --> 01:13:13,199
um to trust the government on this

1768
01:13:16,330 --> 01:13:15,540
subject and then also

1769
01:13:18,590 --> 01:13:16,340
um

1770
01:13:19,850 --> 01:13:18,600
simultaneously to accept absolutely

1771
01:13:22,010 --> 01:13:19,860
nothing that the government actually

1772
01:13:25,250 --> 01:13:22,020
puts out right no matter what those

1773
01:13:28,729 --> 01:13:25,260
reports say it's wrong like it could say

1774
01:13:32,030 --> 01:13:28,739
that yes we have the extra biological

1775
01:13:34,610 --> 01:13:32,040
entity house uh the Air Force Base in

1776
01:13:36,110 --> 01:13:34,620
Dayton Ohio at Wright-Patt and people

1777
01:13:37,669 --> 01:13:36,120
would say it's wrong and it could just

1778
01:13:38,810 --> 01:13:37,679
all be swamp glass and what are weather

1779
01:13:40,310 --> 01:13:38,820
balloons and that would also be wrong

1780
01:13:42,830 --> 01:13:40,320
and they would be equally wrong because

1781
01:13:44,689 --> 01:13:42,840
everyone would be bad you know no matter

1782
01:13:45,430 --> 01:13:44,699
what gets said from the government

1783
01:13:47,750 --> 01:13:45,440
um

1784
01:13:50,090 --> 01:13:47,760
I'm really surprised by that I don't

1785
01:13:52,010 --> 01:13:50,100
think that all government actors are bad

1786
01:13:54,530 --> 01:13:52,020
or poor or wrong or anything but I just

1787
01:13:56,689 --> 01:13:54,540
think the tendency to trust this

1788
01:14:00,290 --> 01:13:56,699
institution on this subject especially

1789
01:14:03,530 --> 01:14:00,300
in the post Patriot Act post 911 era

1790
01:14:06,290 --> 01:14:03,540
seems to me like just kind of

1791
01:14:07,970 --> 01:14:06,300
it speaks to putting UFOs ahead of like

1792
01:14:09,350 --> 01:14:07,980
actual meaningful critical thought in

1793
01:14:12,350 --> 01:14:09,360
many respects and that can be very

1794
01:14:17,330 --> 01:14:14,090
it is strange from the trust no one

1795
01:14:22,189 --> 01:14:17,340
crowd yeah right right

1796
01:14:23,930 --> 01:14:22,199
yes but I mean uh I have seen and um you

1797
01:14:26,090 --> 01:14:23,940
know have uh

1798
01:14:28,550 --> 01:14:26,100
read also many stories of this the same

1799
01:14:30,169 --> 01:14:28,560
thing happening with ufology and the

1800
01:14:31,669 --> 01:14:30,179
scientific Community like when the

1801
01:14:33,110 --> 01:14:31,679
scientific Community isn't paying

1802
01:14:36,050 --> 01:14:33,120
attention to them or doesn't think

1803
01:14:38,870 --> 01:14:36,060
methods are valid or or experiences are

1804
01:14:41,149 --> 01:14:38,880
valid or whatever then you know science

1805
01:14:43,729 --> 01:14:41,159
science is bad and doesn't understand us

1806
01:14:45,290 --> 01:14:43,739
and doesn't have it right but when

1807
01:14:46,970 --> 01:14:45,300
somebody has a PHD and you want to put

1808
01:14:48,530 --> 01:14:46,980
them on the panel they're like oh it's a

1809
01:14:50,450 --> 01:14:48,540
real scientist look at this they're like

1810
01:14:52,250 --> 01:14:50,460
hey a real scientist cares about what

1811
01:14:53,450 --> 01:14:52,260
we're doing and I feel like both that

1812
01:14:56,990 --> 01:14:53,460
and the government thing is just another

1813
01:14:59,209 --> 01:14:57,000
form of confirmation bias which which

1814
01:15:01,070 --> 01:14:59,219
we're all prone to but is not a great

1815
01:15:03,410 --> 01:15:01,080
look

1816
01:15:06,530 --> 01:15:03,420
do you think that um

1817
01:15:08,930 --> 01:15:06,540
UFOs are bipartisan or

1818
01:15:10,910 --> 01:15:08,940
would you say that one side uses them

1819
01:15:14,030 --> 01:15:10,920
more than the other as a kind of conduit

1820
01:15:21,470 --> 01:15:14,040
for like smuggling in their ideas that's

1821
01:15:27,350 --> 01:15:25,250
that is a good good political question

1822
01:15:32,330 --> 01:15:31,070
um I think right now I would wager and I

1823
01:15:34,729 --> 01:15:32,340
would I would be interested in what you

1824
01:15:35,630 --> 01:15:34,739
guys think also that

1825
01:15:38,090 --> 01:15:35,640
um

1826
01:15:40,430 --> 01:15:38,100
with at least Within

1827
01:15:44,209 --> 01:15:40,440
the defense community and their

1828
01:15:48,790 --> 01:15:44,219
investigations that it Trends right the

1829
01:15:53,209 --> 01:15:48,800
trans uh Republican and uh defense

1830
01:15:55,610 --> 01:15:53,219
oriented and nationally oriented I think

1831
01:15:58,070 --> 01:15:55,620
um just because I think that

1832
01:16:00,530 --> 01:15:58,080
um you know there has already been money

1833
01:16:03,050 --> 01:16:00,540
allocated money and resources allocated

1834
01:16:06,350 --> 01:16:03,060
to to the study based on you know a

1835
01:16:07,250 --> 01:16:06,360
defense fear and I think

1836
01:16:11,090 --> 01:16:07,260
um

1837
01:16:14,330 --> 01:16:11,100
in general uh speaking very broadly that

1838
01:16:17,149 --> 01:16:14,340
is a more right right trait than a left

1839
01:16:19,550 --> 01:16:17,159
trait to uh see a threat and want to

1840
01:16:21,890 --> 01:16:19,560
spend defense money on it and so

1841
01:16:24,169 --> 01:16:21,900
yeah but uh I'm curious about the other

1842
01:16:26,209 --> 01:16:24,179
takes in the room

1843
01:16:28,910 --> 01:16:26,219
well it's interesting that the people

1844
01:16:31,370 --> 01:16:28,920
who seem to talk about it outwardly the

1845
01:16:34,250 --> 01:16:31,380
most are Republican Congress people

1846
01:16:36,350 --> 01:16:34,260
right but then the biggest players in

1847
01:16:39,290 --> 01:16:36,360
many respects are like top level

1848
01:16:41,750 --> 01:16:39,300
Democrats right so Senator Harry Reid

1849
01:16:44,270 --> 01:16:41,760
and then uh Senator Kirsten gillibrand

1850
01:16:46,729 --> 01:16:44,280
was uh one of the main with Marco Rubio

1851
01:16:48,530 --> 01:16:46,739
as well of course he's a republican but

1852
01:16:51,669 --> 01:16:48,540
um it's strange that at the top levels

1853
01:16:55,330 --> 01:16:51,679
it almost appears uh in some ways to be

1854
01:16:57,290 --> 01:16:55,340
bipartisan from the purely like

1855
01:17:00,169 --> 01:16:57,300
materialist National Security

1856
01:17:01,310 --> 01:17:00,179
perspective where it seems to me like

1857
01:17:03,110 --> 01:17:01,320
they're sort of

1858
01:17:04,669 --> 01:17:03,120
like you know it's drones that they're

1859
01:17:07,550 --> 01:17:04,679
concerned about obviously and then other

1860
01:17:09,169 --> 01:17:07,560
kinds of like uh you know aircraft of

1861
01:17:10,790 --> 01:17:09,179
domestic threat or you know

1862
01:17:12,229 --> 01:17:10,800
International threats

1863
01:17:14,510 --> 01:17:12,239
um you know but then we have these uh

1864
01:17:15,830 --> 01:17:14,520
the Republicans that I think uh in a

1865
01:17:18,290 --> 01:17:15,840
congressional level are really leaning

1866
01:17:21,410 --> 01:17:18,300
into the identity politics that the FBI

1867
01:17:24,110 --> 01:17:21,420
stuff talks about and please uh I love

1868
01:17:26,810 --> 01:17:24,120
how you mentioned also a lot the uh what

1869
01:17:29,390 --> 01:17:26,820
Association and UFO history with white

1870
01:17:30,649 --> 01:17:29,400
supremacy very closely linked

1871
01:17:34,010 --> 01:17:30,659
um almost I would say almost

1872
01:17:36,110 --> 01:17:34,020
inextricably yeah

1873
01:17:40,970 --> 01:17:36,120
Louise can you jump onto that

1874
01:17:45,770 --> 01:17:43,610
um yeah I think that um there has always

1875
01:17:47,390 --> 01:17:45,780
been a kind of right-wing aspect to it

1876
01:17:49,970 --> 01:17:47,400
maybe a racial

1877
01:17:52,610 --> 01:17:49,980
aspect um maybe unconsciously held but

1878
01:17:55,970 --> 01:17:52,620
still but um there's also been like a

1879
01:17:58,729 --> 01:17:55,980
some Neo-Nazi white supremacists

1880
01:18:02,149 --> 01:17:58,739
um have kind of used um

1881
01:18:04,729 --> 01:18:02,159
Ancient Aliens maybe especially to kind

1882
01:18:07,189 --> 01:18:04,739
of push the idea that um the white race

1883
01:18:09,709 --> 01:18:07,199
is kind of cosmically endowed with some

1884
01:18:11,630 --> 01:18:09,719
special genius so in that sense

1885
01:18:13,070 --> 01:18:11,640
there's a kind of um

1886
01:18:16,310 --> 01:18:13,080
yeah they're trying to sort of um

1887
01:18:19,910 --> 01:18:16,320
smuggle in racial ideas um racial

1888
01:18:21,709 --> 01:18:19,920
identity through the UFO but um somebody

1889
01:18:25,130 --> 01:18:21,719
also mentioned I think it was Jason

1890
01:18:28,130 --> 01:18:25,140
colavito mentioned that um it seems to

1891
01:18:29,990 --> 01:18:28,140
be the case that in ufology like the the

1892
01:18:33,110 --> 01:18:30,000
thought leaders or like the people in

1893
01:18:35,270 --> 01:18:33,120
charge of mufon and those sorts of gigs

1894
01:18:37,669 --> 01:18:35,280
they tend to be conservative white men

1895
01:18:40,610 --> 01:18:37,679
but then the rank and file tend to be

1896
01:18:44,149 --> 01:18:40,620
more liberal or even left-leaning and

1897
01:18:46,130 --> 01:18:44,159
that's a kind of interesting dichotomy

1898
01:18:47,570 --> 01:18:46,140
so yeah I think there's probably

1899
01:18:50,209 --> 01:18:47,580
something to that but I'm not sure like

1900
01:18:52,189 --> 01:18:50,219
what the causal explanation for that

1901
01:18:54,770 --> 01:18:52,199
would be

1902
01:18:56,270 --> 01:18:54,780
we also have a comment from Steve Young

1903
01:18:57,950 --> 01:18:56,280
here that it becomes even more

1904
01:18:59,570 --> 01:18:57,960
interesting when considering that the

1905
01:19:00,950 --> 01:18:59,580
UFO Twitter crowd is largely left

1906
01:19:04,610 --> 01:19:00,960
leaning

1907
01:19:05,810 --> 01:19:04,620
um yes with notable exception

1908
01:19:08,090 --> 01:19:05,820
um

1909
01:19:10,850 --> 01:19:08,100
yeah I mean I've mentioned this before

1910
01:19:12,130 --> 01:19:10,860
on the show where I think UFOs in

1911
01:19:15,890 --> 01:19:12,140
ufology

1912
01:19:18,890 --> 01:19:15,900
are a powerful Trojan Horse

1913
01:19:22,189 --> 01:19:18,900
mm-hmm to

1914
01:19:24,770 --> 01:19:22,199
unwind consensus reality and to

1915
01:19:27,470 --> 01:19:24,780
undermine public confidence in the

1916
01:19:29,570 --> 01:19:27,480
government and in institutions and I see

1917
01:19:32,030 --> 01:19:29,580
those two objectives

1918
01:19:34,430 --> 01:19:32,040
in many respects as being at the heart

1919
01:19:36,950 --> 01:19:34,440
of the alt-right and totalitarian

1920
01:19:37,910 --> 01:19:36,960
movement in this country

1921
01:19:42,410 --> 01:19:37,920
um

1922
01:19:45,050 --> 01:19:42,420
and I think that UFOs are a compelling

1923
01:19:48,050 --> 01:19:45,060
subject for the average person and to

1924
01:19:48,910 --> 01:19:48,060
use them to smuggle in these ideas and

1925
01:19:50,149 --> 01:19:48,920
introduce them

1926
01:19:50,930 --> 01:19:50,159
[Music]

1927
01:19:53,450 --> 01:19:50,940
um

1928
01:19:56,030 --> 01:19:53,460
more broadly through kind of an

1929
01:19:58,130 --> 01:19:56,040
innocuous approach

1930
01:20:00,890 --> 01:19:58,140
um feels deliberately political like I

1931
01:20:02,390 --> 01:20:00,900
don't think uh the intern is here hi to

1932
01:20:05,770 --> 01:20:02,400
the internet Nick

1933
01:20:08,990 --> 01:20:05,780
um like it feels to me it's deliberate

1934
01:20:12,649 --> 01:20:09,000
maneuver for Tucker Carlson for instance

1935
01:20:13,850 --> 01:20:12,659
to be hosting shows on this because

1936
01:20:15,290 --> 01:20:13,860
um

1937
01:20:17,090 --> 01:20:15,300
there are lots of people in this

1938
01:20:18,950 --> 01:20:17,100
community who across the board would

1939
01:20:21,350 --> 01:20:18,960
identify as being left or Progressive

1940
01:20:23,270 --> 01:20:21,360
but will happily tune in and support Dr

1941
01:20:27,410 --> 01:20:23,280
Carlson just because he's talking about

1942
01:20:29,510 --> 01:20:27,420
UFOs and I think that

1943
01:20:31,189 --> 01:20:29,520
you know not that I think exactly that

1944
01:20:34,189 --> 01:20:31,199
Rachel Maddow should be having Gary

1945
01:20:36,410 --> 01:20:34,199
Nolan on her show but I do think that

1946
01:20:39,110 --> 01:20:36,420
this subject is quickly becoming yet

1947
01:20:42,950 --> 01:20:39,120
another subject in the

1948
01:20:45,169 --> 01:20:42,960
Eternal cultural war that the right and

1949
01:20:47,330 --> 01:20:45,179
right sympathizing movements have

1950
01:20:50,209 --> 01:20:47,340
co-opted and I mean we see this I mean

1951
01:20:52,850 --> 01:20:50,219
we see this in like the woo-woo New Age

1952
01:20:55,310 --> 01:20:52,860
yoga whatever movement too you know the

1953
01:20:57,470 --> 01:20:55,320
the Whole Foods to cue pipeline is like

1954
01:20:59,149 --> 01:20:57,480
way shorter than most people think

1955
01:21:01,189 --> 01:20:59,159
um and it's also predicated on these

1956
01:21:02,510 --> 01:21:01,199
same ideas of unwinding consensus

1957
01:21:03,550 --> 01:21:02,520
reality

1958
01:21:07,790 --> 01:21:03,560
um

1959
01:21:09,950 --> 01:21:07,800
yeah post-truth trying to exploit

1960
01:21:13,430 --> 01:21:09,960
um like like trying to exploit

1961
01:21:16,070 --> 01:21:13,440
subjectivity of experience by also

1962
01:21:18,950 --> 01:21:16,080
like leading people to not agree or

1963
01:21:21,290 --> 01:21:18,960
believe in the same things or same

1964
01:21:23,510 --> 01:21:21,300
Frameworks

1965
01:21:25,669 --> 01:21:23,520
I think if they can turn um High School

1966
01:21:28,130 --> 01:21:25,679
sports into a political wedge issue then

1967
01:21:30,169 --> 01:21:28,140
they could do it with UFOs I think

1968
01:21:32,390 --> 01:21:30,179
um yeah this could yeah this could

1969
01:21:36,169 --> 01:21:32,400
really be the beginning of that

1970
01:21:41,510 --> 01:21:38,750
yeah and also with um alternative

1971
01:21:45,350 --> 01:21:43,370
you know tons of people

1972
01:21:47,930 --> 01:21:45,360
um on the right they they they're they

1973
01:21:49,610 --> 01:21:47,940
absolutely love um grain Graham

1974
01:21:51,490 --> 01:21:49,620
Hancock's ideas

1975
01:21:53,510 --> 01:21:51,500
hmm

1976
01:21:55,550 --> 01:21:53,520
there's some overlap there with like

1977
01:21:58,430 --> 01:21:55,560
Ancient Aliens but again it's sort of

1978
01:22:00,890 --> 01:21:58,440
this attack on the establishment quote

1979
01:22:05,090 --> 01:22:00,900
unquote or um

1980
01:22:09,290 --> 01:22:05,100
kind of um they they put forth put sorry

1981
01:22:11,870 --> 01:22:09,300
put forth like a um persecution complex

1982
01:22:14,209 --> 01:22:11,880
type of thing where like they they cost

1983
01:22:16,550 --> 01:22:14,219
themselves as the victims who are being

1984
01:22:19,669 --> 01:22:16,560
targeted by

1985
01:22:22,970 --> 01:22:19,679
you know people who actually have

1986
01:22:24,169 --> 01:22:22,980
Science degrees or actual credentials or

1987
01:22:25,790 --> 01:22:24,179
expertise

1988
01:22:30,110 --> 01:22:25,800
so

1989
01:22:30,120 --> 01:22:35,990
I mean and like

1990
01:22:38,270 --> 01:22:37,070
and like you don't have to agree with

1991
01:22:40,550 --> 01:22:38,280
what I'm going to say I just want to be

1992
01:22:42,470 --> 01:22:40,560
super clear but like

1993
01:22:44,330 --> 01:22:42,480
I think there's a whole lot of misogyny

1994
01:22:46,310 --> 01:22:44,340
and ufology too

1995
01:22:48,890 --> 01:22:46,320
um it feels like a community in a

1996
01:22:50,689 --> 01:22:48,900
subject that is Rife with misogyny

1997
01:22:52,430 --> 01:22:50,699
um and it's you know I'd like to remind

1998
01:22:53,990 --> 01:22:52,440
people that misogyny doesn't show up as

1999
01:22:57,169 --> 01:22:54,000
just calling women [\h__\h] or whatever

2000
01:22:59,149 --> 01:22:57,179
it shows up as someone writing an op-ed

2001
01:23:00,169 --> 01:22:59,159
about you on Facebook but not talking to

2002
01:23:01,850 --> 01:23:00,179
you

2003
01:23:05,390 --> 01:23:01,860
um or

2004
01:23:07,669 --> 01:23:05,400
um people not responding to DMS uh so

2005
01:23:10,370 --> 01:23:07,679
the male co-hosts will get the

2006
01:23:12,110 --> 01:23:10,380
communication or it shows up to not

2007
01:23:14,209 --> 01:23:12,120
being invited to research groups that

2008
01:23:16,070 --> 01:23:14,219
other people get invited to

2009
01:23:18,649 --> 01:23:16,080
um and I think that the kind of

2010
01:23:20,990 --> 01:23:18,659
demographic makeup of this community

2011
01:23:23,030 --> 01:23:21,000
and like the gatekeeping around it can

2012
01:23:25,850 --> 01:23:23,040
be extremely damning in terms of

2013
01:23:28,370 --> 01:23:25,860
welcoming a variety of identities and

2014
01:23:30,350 --> 01:23:28,380
experiences and backgrounds

2015
01:23:32,390 --> 01:23:30,360
um and and viewpoints I do think it's

2016
01:23:34,669 --> 01:23:32,400
getting better like credit where credits

2017
01:23:35,450 --> 01:23:34,679
do like I think Linda Thompson

2018
01:23:38,570 --> 01:23:35,460
um

2019
01:23:40,370 --> 01:23:38,580
opinions aside uh like she's someone

2020
01:23:42,110 --> 01:23:40,380
that I think has done a lot to sort of

2021
01:23:43,850 --> 01:23:42,120
elevate the visibility of women in this

2022
01:23:46,130 --> 01:23:43,860
subject I think Erica Luke's has done an

2023
01:23:47,990 --> 01:23:46,140
incredible amount to get to elevate the

2024
01:23:48,709 --> 01:23:48,000
visibility of women

2025
01:23:51,890 --> 01:23:48,719
um

2026
01:23:54,410 --> 01:23:51,900
or even just basically nonsense man

2027
01:23:56,390 --> 01:23:54,420
um it but I feel also like it's still

2028
01:23:58,550 --> 01:23:56,400
such a good old boys club in many

2029
01:24:00,649 --> 01:23:58,560
respects and that doesn't lend itself to

2030
01:24:02,149 --> 01:24:00,659
like authentic truth seeking or sense

2031
01:24:03,530 --> 01:24:02,159
making as well when you're kind of

2032
01:24:05,810 --> 01:24:03,540
cutting out huge swallows of the

2033
01:24:11,570 --> 01:24:09,290
mm-hmm yeah and and when you know a

2034
01:24:13,790 --> 01:24:11,580
complicated topic kind of by necessity

2035
01:24:16,970 --> 01:24:13,800
requires diversity of thought to make

2036
01:24:18,950 --> 01:24:16,980
any sense of it and if you're yeah if

2037
01:24:20,510 --> 01:24:18,960
you're not only pushing out the thoughts

2038
01:24:22,310 --> 01:24:20,520
that you don't like outside of your Echo

2039
01:24:26,209 --> 01:24:22,320
chamber but the people who might might

2040
01:24:28,490 --> 01:24:26,219
bring them and uh yeah I mean I do agree

2041
01:24:29,750 --> 01:24:28,500
with you uh yeah and I think even just

2042
01:24:32,209 --> 01:24:29,760
the um

2043
01:24:34,790 --> 01:24:32,219
the the and I do think it's getting

2044
01:24:37,010 --> 01:24:34,800
better I think it was uh I mean it was

2045
01:24:38,570 --> 01:24:37,020
it was yeah it was pretty bad when I was

2046
01:24:40,729 --> 01:24:38,580
uh first working on the book but I mean

2047
01:24:42,709 --> 01:24:40,739
that was you know five five years ago

2048
01:24:45,950 --> 01:24:42,719
now but I mean you just had to be

2049
01:24:48,290 --> 01:24:45,960
willing to take a lot of hits and a lot

2050
01:24:50,330 --> 01:24:48,300
of people yelling at you if they for

2051
01:24:52,130 --> 01:24:50,340
like days at a time if they didn't agree

2052
01:24:54,169 --> 01:24:52,140
with you and I think

2053
01:24:58,010 --> 01:24:54,179
um you know that probably happened to a

2054
01:25:01,010 --> 01:24:58,020
lot of uh men also but when

2055
01:25:03,410 --> 01:25:01,020
members of one group are all yelling at

2056
01:25:05,870 --> 01:25:03,420
one member of another group than that I

2057
01:25:08,209 --> 01:25:05,880
think that feels different and so yeah I

2058
01:25:10,790 --> 01:25:08,219
just had to leave my phone at home a lot

2059
01:25:13,430 --> 01:25:10,800
of times and ignore what people were

2060
01:25:16,070 --> 01:25:13,440
doing and so but yeah I think

2061
01:25:17,810 --> 01:25:16,080
um uh people it's a little I think

2062
01:25:20,090 --> 01:25:17,820
people have kind of over the past few

2063
01:25:21,590 --> 01:25:20,100
years changed their own minds about some

2064
01:25:23,689 --> 01:25:21,600
things and become more open to other

2065
01:25:29,030 --> 01:25:23,699
other ideas and then to maybe become

2066
01:25:31,910 --> 01:25:29,040
more open to other people hopefully

2067
01:25:34,189 --> 01:25:31,920
yeah I'll just uh say I uh entirely uh

2068
01:25:37,310 --> 01:25:34,199
support what you said uh well yeah and

2069
01:25:40,430 --> 01:25:37,320
Sarah I agree entirely I've seen very

2070
01:25:43,130 --> 01:25:40,440
troubling things in this community that

2071
01:25:45,890 --> 01:25:43,140
um yeah good list but I guess I won't

2072
01:25:48,709 --> 01:25:45,900
um and uh it's disappointing but

2073
01:25:50,510 --> 01:25:48,719
you know Leah you were I think the first

2074
01:25:52,729 --> 01:25:50,520
person I've noted in this entire

2075
01:25:55,250 --> 01:25:52,739
Community to make a moral stand and

2076
01:25:57,290 --> 01:25:55,260
actually like make a point about saying

2077
01:26:00,590 --> 01:25:57,300
like this isn't acceptable we need to

2078
01:26:03,110 --> 01:26:00,600
like step aside and call this out and

2079
01:26:07,070 --> 01:26:03,120
make a distinction openly and actively

2080
01:26:08,810 --> 01:26:07,080
and uh State your support for rights and

2081
01:26:11,090 --> 01:26:08,820
opposition to bigotry and things like

2082
01:26:13,850 --> 01:26:11,100
that so you know I'm very uh thankful

2083
01:26:16,550 --> 01:26:13,860
that you have led this uh charge Leah

2084
01:26:19,729 --> 01:26:16,560
and I don't want to uh you know I want

2085
01:26:22,550 --> 01:26:19,739
to emphasize that here and now yeah

2086
01:26:24,290 --> 01:26:22,560
yeah but I mean I just think

2087
01:26:25,729 --> 01:26:24,300
like when we get back to the premise of

2088
01:26:28,689 --> 01:26:25,739
this entire show

2089
01:26:30,770 --> 01:26:28,699
it's really genuinely for real

2090
01:26:32,810 --> 01:26:30,780
predicated on having good faith

2091
01:26:34,790 --> 01:26:32,820
conversations I would love to have like

2092
01:26:36,410 --> 01:26:34,800
Jay Christopher King on the show I would

2093
01:26:38,510 --> 01:26:36,420
love to talk to him I would love to talk

2094
01:26:41,570 --> 01:26:38,520
to James iandoli I would love to talk to

2095
01:26:43,669 --> 01:26:41,580
Gary Nolan like I am open and want to

2096
01:26:45,770 --> 01:26:43,679
talk to people that I would consider to

2097
01:26:47,750 --> 01:26:45,780
be on the other side of the aisle even

2098
01:26:51,169 --> 01:26:47,760
if candidly I may sit more on their

2099
01:26:53,510 --> 01:26:51,179
aisle than on midwest's side

2100
01:26:55,729 --> 01:26:53,520
um and I I think that this is a

2101
01:27:00,169 --> 01:26:57,590
um particularly on UFO Twitter but I

2102
01:27:02,930 --> 01:27:00,179
think just ufology in general is so

2103
01:27:05,149 --> 01:27:02,940
prone to these hyper polarized Dynamics

2104
01:27:07,910 --> 01:27:05,159
because so much of people's identities

2105
01:27:10,250 --> 01:27:07,920
are tied up in the subject that to have

2106
01:27:11,810 --> 01:27:10,260
any kind of criticism or pushback feels

2107
01:27:13,550 --> 01:27:11,820
very much like a deliberate personal

2108
01:27:16,250 --> 01:27:13,560
attack

2109
01:27:17,870 --> 01:27:16,260
um you know and I mean I think

2110
01:27:20,270 --> 01:27:17,880
it's

2111
01:27:21,890 --> 01:27:20,280
gosh I kind of hesitate to say what I'm

2112
01:27:24,290 --> 01:27:21,900
gonna say whatever everyone's already

2113
01:27:27,229 --> 01:27:24,300
mad at me anyway this week I I think the

2114
01:27:30,350 --> 01:27:27,239
other thing with ufology I think there

2115
01:27:32,930 --> 01:27:30,360
are great and Brilliant and incisive

2116
01:27:35,570 --> 01:27:32,940
and Incredible Minds in this community

2117
01:27:38,510 --> 01:27:35,580
people that I just monumentally respect

2118
01:27:39,950 --> 01:27:38,520
intellectually and personally but I also

2119
01:27:43,270 --> 01:27:39,960
think that this is a community that

2120
01:27:46,790 --> 01:27:43,280
provides Safe Harbor for Extraordinary

2121
01:27:49,910 --> 01:27:46,800
dysregulation and mental illness as well

2122
01:27:52,910 --> 01:27:49,920
and and it can be extremely difficult to

2123
01:27:54,530 --> 01:27:52,920
discern between the two sometimes and

2124
01:27:56,510 --> 01:27:54,540
that can also be sort of a frustrating

2125
01:27:58,430 --> 01:27:56,520
trap or

2126
01:28:00,050 --> 01:27:58,440
um Dynamic that can show up in this

2127
01:28:01,790 --> 01:28:00,060
space and it's unfortunate right it's to

2128
01:28:03,290 --> 01:28:01,800
the detriment of like everyone it's I'm

2129
01:28:05,510 --> 01:28:03,300
not like pointing fingers I'm just

2130
01:28:07,189 --> 01:28:05,520
saying it's in general in terms of how

2131
01:28:09,950 --> 01:28:07,199
it contributes to the community Dynamic

2132
01:28:12,050 --> 01:28:09,960
it's it's a net negative

2133
01:28:14,030 --> 01:28:12,060
do you find that to be the same like

2134
01:28:16,910 --> 01:28:14,040
when you go to conferences in person as

2135
01:28:19,490 --> 01:28:16,920
it is in online interactions or is it

2136
01:28:21,290 --> 01:28:19,500
worse people are so well behaved at

2137
01:28:24,110 --> 01:28:21,300
conferences so I've only been to two

2138
01:28:25,850 --> 01:28:24,120
I've been to the anomalous uh anomalous

2139
01:28:28,430 --> 01:28:25,860
experiences in the phenomena in New York

2140
01:28:30,590 --> 01:28:28,440
City the one hosted by Jillian James

2141
01:28:32,090 --> 01:28:30,600
um and they were both the first time I

2142
01:28:34,550 --> 01:28:32,100
went for free and the second time I

2143
01:28:36,290 --> 01:28:34,560
actually paid so I thought gives you an

2144
01:28:37,729 --> 01:28:36,300
idea of like I really enjoyed myself it

2145
01:28:39,410 --> 01:28:37,739
felt like a very small academic

2146
01:28:41,330 --> 01:28:39,420
conference like everyone was very well

2147
01:28:42,770 --> 01:28:41,340
behaved people that I'd seen at each

2148
01:28:47,750 --> 01:28:42,780
other's throats on Twitter were like

2149
01:28:50,930 --> 01:28:47,760
totally blowing it up like people like I

2150
01:28:52,490 --> 01:28:50,940
yeah was perhaps one notable exception

2151
01:28:53,870 --> 01:28:52,500
um but I it's funny because I was saying

2152
01:28:56,390 --> 01:28:53,880
to one of my friends after that I was

2153
01:28:57,830 --> 01:28:56,400
like man I was the least Normie looking

2154
01:28:59,930 --> 01:28:57,840
person in the room because I'm like

2155
01:29:02,149 --> 01:28:59,940
tattooed from my neck down and like

2156
01:29:04,490 --> 01:29:02,159
everybody else looked like Rank and file

2157
01:29:06,169 --> 01:29:04,500
very standard Midwestern people they're

2158
01:29:08,090 --> 01:29:06,179
all very normally you wouldn't you would

2159
01:29:10,669 --> 01:29:08,100
never know they were UFO people it was

2160
01:29:16,250 --> 01:29:13,250
yes sir could you comment on uh for your

2161
01:29:18,890 --> 01:29:16,260
book um they're already here in 2020 you

2162
01:29:21,890 --> 01:29:18,900
went around extensively interacting with

2163
01:29:24,169 --> 01:29:21,900
people could you talk a little bit about

2164
01:29:25,729 --> 01:29:24,179
like when you saw when you met somebody

2165
01:29:28,370 --> 01:29:25,739
and then they started getting

2166
01:29:31,129 --> 01:29:28,380
comfortable with you and like disclosing

2167
01:29:34,250 --> 01:29:31,139
their opinions on uh things that are

2168
01:29:36,229 --> 01:29:34,260
like so far removed from the standard

2169
01:29:38,209 --> 01:29:36,239
could you just talk a little bit about

2170
01:29:42,530 --> 01:29:38,219
like

2171
01:29:44,689 --> 01:29:42,540
the way that you sort of saw them change

2172
01:29:46,970 --> 01:29:44,699
and become more accepting to communicate

2173
01:29:48,850 --> 01:29:46,980
with you as you engaged with them more

2174
01:29:51,350 --> 01:29:48,860
and more

2175
01:29:53,689 --> 01:29:51,360
yeah definitely

2176
01:29:55,910 --> 01:29:53,699
um I mean I think it was important to me

2177
01:29:59,810 --> 01:29:55,920
going into every interview to kind of

2178
01:30:02,030 --> 01:29:59,820
tell them where I'm coming from like I

2179
01:30:03,410 --> 01:30:02,040
think you know journalists can take for

2180
01:30:05,750 --> 01:30:03,420
granted like I'm here to interview

2181
01:30:08,930 --> 01:30:05,760
you're on the record and just be you

2182
01:30:10,729 --> 01:30:08,940
know ruthless about it sometimes um and

2183
01:30:12,530 --> 01:30:10,739
not you know not care what happens to

2184
01:30:14,629 --> 01:30:12,540
the other person because they're on

2185
01:30:16,250 --> 01:30:14,639
Deadline and hopefully no journalists to

2186
01:30:19,610 --> 01:30:16,260
listen to the listening to this but that

2187
01:30:23,270 --> 01:30:19,620
does happen and um it was important to

2188
01:30:25,310 --> 01:30:23,280
me to uh tell people where I was coming

2189
01:30:28,370 --> 01:30:25,320
from like how I would be using their

2190
01:30:31,070 --> 01:30:28,380
interview like you know I come from a

2191
01:30:33,410 --> 01:30:31,080
more skeptical perspective I you know

2192
01:30:35,930 --> 01:30:33,420
work in science journalism but I'm

2193
01:30:37,790 --> 01:30:35,940
obviously here because I care about what

2194
01:30:40,370 --> 01:30:37,800
you think what you experienced what you

2195
01:30:42,290 --> 01:30:40,380
believe and I will do my best to portray

2196
01:30:45,770 --> 01:30:42,300
that accurately

2197
01:30:48,229 --> 01:30:45,780
um even if we don't agree and so I kind

2198
01:30:49,790 --> 01:30:48,239
of LED with that so that they you know

2199
01:30:52,030 --> 01:30:49,800
wouldn't would wouldn't expect to

2200
01:30:55,189 --> 01:30:52,040
necessarily be in a book that was just

2201
01:30:57,370 --> 01:30:55,199
rah-rah extraterrestrial hypothesis UFOs

2202
01:31:00,169 --> 01:30:57,380
but would feel

2203
01:31:02,149 --> 01:31:00,179
comfortable and I think

2204
01:31:03,890 --> 01:31:02,159
um you know I tried to talk to people in

2205
01:31:06,169 --> 01:31:03,900
in their own environment like I went to

2206
01:31:08,810 --> 01:31:06,179
this place called the UFO Watchtower out

2207
01:31:10,689 --> 01:31:08,820
here in Colorado actually just right

2208
01:31:12,850 --> 01:31:10,699
over there not very far

2209
01:31:15,649 --> 01:31:12,860
right

2210
01:31:18,110 --> 01:31:15,659
yeah so I camped at the base of Blanca

2211
01:31:20,030 --> 01:31:18,120
Peak in like January like five years ago

2212
01:31:22,490 --> 01:31:20,040
and I went past I drove to the UFO Tower

2213
01:31:24,290 --> 01:31:22,500
and I drove to the Great Sand Dunes uh

2214
01:31:26,450 --> 01:31:24,300
on that weekend trip yeah

2215
01:31:29,510 --> 01:31:26,460
it's a beautiful area actually just yeah

2216
01:31:31,010 --> 01:31:29,520
it's gorgeous yeah yeah I uh I used to

2217
01:31:33,649 --> 01:31:31,020
live in Denver and I just moved right on

2218
01:31:35,930 --> 01:31:33,659
the other side of the mountains from oh

2219
01:31:37,370 --> 01:31:35,940
that's awesome so yeah it's dark now but

2220
01:31:41,930 --> 01:31:37,380
yeah

2221
01:31:43,490 --> 01:31:41,940
the woman who uh started that and then

2222
01:31:45,950 --> 01:31:43,500
the the woman who was also running it

2223
01:31:47,090 --> 01:31:45,960
like I did it there you know on on their

2224
01:31:48,350 --> 01:31:47,100
Turf

2225
01:31:50,510 --> 01:31:48,360
um and

2226
01:31:53,030 --> 01:31:50,520
I think I feel like actually people were

2227
01:31:54,530 --> 01:31:53,040
pretty open from the beginning of an

2228
01:31:55,970 --> 01:31:54,540
interview I think

2229
01:31:58,850 --> 01:31:55,980
um you know we were talking earlier

2230
01:32:01,970 --> 01:31:58,860
about experiencers creating a safe space

2231
01:32:03,770 --> 01:32:01,980
for each other of just like you know I

2232
01:32:05,750 --> 01:32:03,780
say something you say something we're on

2233
01:32:10,310 --> 01:32:05,760
the same page like my experience is

2234
01:32:12,290 --> 01:32:10,320
going to be respected and I think uh

2235
01:32:15,470 --> 01:32:12,300
talking to those people and also even

2236
01:32:17,629 --> 01:32:15,480
you know talking to just people in my

2237
01:32:20,090 --> 01:32:17,639
life as soon as you say like I'm writing

2238
01:32:22,370 --> 01:32:20,100
a book about UFOs everyone's like have I

2239
01:32:24,290 --> 01:32:22,380
got a story for you

2240
01:32:25,610 --> 01:32:24,300
um every everyone

2241
01:32:27,830 --> 01:32:25,620
um well not everyone but like many

2242
01:32:29,810 --> 01:32:27,840
people you wouldn't expect including you

2243
01:32:31,910 --> 01:32:29,820
know like list at the most Midwestern

2244
01:32:33,709 --> 01:32:31,920
looking people in your life with the

2245
01:32:36,950 --> 01:32:33,719
most Banker jobs have seen something

2246
01:32:38,870 --> 01:32:36,960
crazy in this guy and uh so I think

2247
01:32:42,950 --> 01:32:38,880
people people were honestly just happy

2248
01:32:44,629 --> 01:32:42,960
to have someone want want to hear about

2249
01:32:46,129 --> 01:32:44,639
it and uh that's probably a bad answer

2250
01:32:47,390 --> 01:32:46,139
because I didn't have to work very hard

2251
01:32:49,370 --> 01:32:47,400
but

2252
01:32:51,709 --> 01:32:49,380
um I also think uh here's another place

2253
01:32:53,990 --> 01:32:51,719
where my Mormon upbringing does me well

2254
01:32:57,050 --> 01:32:54,000
I think I just seem approachable just

2255
01:32:59,390 --> 01:32:57,060
because of that I'd love to actually ask

2256
01:33:02,689 --> 01:32:59,400
yourself I'd love to ask a follow-up

2257
01:33:04,250 --> 01:33:02,699
about that um because I um I'm so

2258
01:33:07,129 --> 01:33:04,260
intrigued how like there's such a

2259
01:33:09,649 --> 01:33:07,139
significant presence of uh like Mormons

2260
01:33:13,250 --> 01:33:09,659
and ex-mormons in sort of UFO culture

2261
01:33:15,169 --> 01:33:13,260
I've noticed and I've wondered and uh

2262
01:33:17,450 --> 01:33:15,179
yeah maybe could just uh shine some

2263
01:33:19,189 --> 01:33:17,460
light on it obviously yes or no but like

2264
01:33:20,510 --> 01:33:19,199
do you think because we talked a little

2265
01:33:23,510 --> 01:33:20,520
bit of World Views and how like

2266
01:33:25,970 --> 01:33:23,520
worldviews can already contain the uh

2267
01:33:27,470 --> 01:33:25,980
schema fetus let's categorize a new

2268
01:33:30,110 --> 01:33:27,480
observation

2269
01:33:32,450 --> 01:33:30,120
um like in Mormonism I know that there's

2270
01:33:34,010 --> 01:33:32,460
like the concept of other planets

2271
01:33:36,550 --> 01:33:34,020
already existing within that like

2272
01:33:39,350 --> 01:33:36,560
cosmology and it always makes me wonder

2273
01:33:43,610 --> 01:33:39,360
uh like does that do you feel that that

2274
01:33:45,890 --> 01:33:43,620
has any influence on uh somebody who uh

2275
01:33:49,070 --> 01:33:45,900
subscribed to that uh world view be more

2276
01:33:52,189 --> 01:33:49,080
open to observations the you know of

2277
01:33:54,890 --> 01:33:52,199
that the sort of like conceptual nature

2278
01:33:56,570 --> 01:33:54,900
like UFOs or whatever yeah I think I

2279
01:33:58,310 --> 01:33:56,580
think I think it does

2280
01:34:00,169 --> 01:33:58,320
um I mean like yeah like you said Mormon

2281
01:34:01,850 --> 01:34:00,179
theology has the cosmology of their

2282
01:34:03,830 --> 01:34:01,860
there are other planets if you're a good

2283
01:34:07,310 --> 01:34:03,840
Mormon you'll get your your own planet

2284
01:34:10,310 --> 01:34:07,320
and um I think yeah I know I don't get

2285
01:34:14,750 --> 01:34:13,070
um uh and you know there's a like a

2286
01:34:17,030 --> 01:34:14,760
scripture I remember growing up hearing

2287
01:34:19,129 --> 01:34:17,040
like like worlds without number have I

2288
01:34:20,990 --> 01:34:19,139
created it so that is just already part

2289
01:34:23,990 --> 01:34:21,000
of your worldview whereas I think that

2290
01:34:27,649 --> 01:34:24,000
like the idea of

2291
01:34:29,930 --> 01:34:27,659
um obviously not that all UFO ideas are

2292
01:34:32,750 --> 01:34:29,940
extraterrestrial ideas but when you grow

2293
01:34:35,330 --> 01:34:32,760
up thinking that could be out there it

2294
01:34:37,490 --> 01:34:35,340
leads you to not find at least the

2295
01:34:39,229 --> 01:34:37,500
Extraterrestrial idea behind UFOs to be

2296
01:34:42,169 --> 01:34:39,239
conflicting with your fundamental

2297
01:34:44,149 --> 01:34:42,179
religion or spirituality

2298
01:34:46,250 --> 01:34:44,159
um I've actually seen more about this in

2299
01:34:49,250 --> 01:34:46,260
the in the study Community where it was

2300
01:34:51,530 --> 01:34:49,260
also a Mormon uh senator from Utah named

2301
01:34:53,270 --> 01:34:51,540
Jake Garn who was really the the

2302
01:34:55,970 --> 01:34:53,280
supporter

2303
01:34:58,070 --> 01:34:55,980
um in Congress of of seti pro programs

2304
01:34:59,810 --> 01:34:58,080
and I think you know probably for some

2305
01:35:02,030 --> 01:34:59,820
of the same reasons whereas if you're

2306
01:35:03,709 --> 01:35:02,040
like a Catholic Senator or something

2307
01:35:07,129 --> 01:35:03,719
else and it's not either it's either

2308
01:35:09,350 --> 01:35:07,139
directly contradicts your theology or is

2309
01:35:11,390 --> 01:35:09,360
not explicitly mentioned you kind of

2310
01:35:13,370 --> 01:35:11,400
have to do a mental shift to incorporate

2311
01:35:15,169 --> 01:35:13,380
it at all but if it's already there

2312
01:35:18,229 --> 01:35:15,179
you're just like oh yeah that's my long

2313
01:35:19,729 --> 01:35:18,239
lost cousin's planet and his alien UFOs

2314
01:35:21,410 --> 01:35:19,739
or something

2315
01:35:23,810 --> 01:35:21,420
um I I don't think I don't think

2316
01:35:25,910 --> 01:35:23,820
consciously but I think if it's just if

2317
01:35:29,149 --> 01:35:25,920
it's permissible by your worldview then

2318
01:35:31,430 --> 01:35:29,159
that yeah makes more sense good yeah

2319
01:35:34,430 --> 01:35:31,440
yeah so so I wanted to flag a question

2320
01:35:37,490 --> 01:35:34,440
from one of our audience members Steve

2321
01:35:39,110 --> 01:35:37,500
um total friend of the Pod as they say

2322
01:35:40,729 --> 01:35:39,120
um

2323
01:35:42,470 --> 01:35:40,739
we're just going to rewind a little bit

2324
01:35:43,790 --> 01:35:42,480
to talk more about I guess like nuts and

2325
01:35:46,250 --> 01:35:43,800
bolts here

2326
01:35:49,729 --> 01:35:46,260
um does Sarah feel any of the entities

2327
01:35:52,370 --> 01:35:49,739
which have formed to detect UAP for

2328
01:35:54,169 --> 01:35:52,380
example the Galileo project are very

2329
01:35:56,090 --> 01:35:54,179
promising and how would they be

2330
01:35:58,970 --> 01:35:56,100
different from numerous surveillance

2331
01:36:00,590 --> 01:35:58,980
entities already operating so it kind of

2332
01:36:02,990 --> 01:36:00,600
touches on what we were saying we're

2333
01:36:05,930 --> 01:36:03,000
talking about with the NASA panel

2334
01:36:09,350 --> 01:36:06,709
um

2335
01:36:11,689 --> 01:36:09,360
yeah I think that

2336
01:36:14,930 --> 01:36:11,699
um I mean the idea of the Galileo

2337
01:36:17,270 --> 01:36:14,940
project definitely seems promising to me

2338
01:36:20,149 --> 01:36:17,280
you know setting up various devices

2339
01:36:22,250 --> 01:36:20,159
explicitly meant to try to capture

2340
01:36:24,350 --> 01:36:22,260
anomalous things and maybe Gathering

2341
01:36:26,510 --> 01:36:24,360
some statistical data on how often that

2342
01:36:28,729 --> 01:36:26,520
happens and understanding what it is

2343
01:36:31,370 --> 01:36:28,739
like in theory

2344
01:36:33,229 --> 01:36:31,380
great I would like that information also

2345
01:36:35,149 --> 01:36:33,239
however I don't think that they have

2346
01:36:36,590 --> 01:36:35,159
deployed anything someone can correct me

2347
01:36:39,169 --> 01:36:36,600
if that's wrong I don't know that I'm up

2348
01:36:41,750 --> 01:36:39,179
on the latest but

2349
01:36:43,189 --> 01:36:41,760
um and I think a lot of the people not

2350
01:36:44,930 --> 01:36:43,199
all of the people but a lot of the

2351
01:36:48,110 --> 01:36:44,940
people who are part of the Galileo

2352
01:36:50,810 --> 01:36:48,120
project kind of had the idea that like

2353
01:36:52,250 --> 01:36:50,820
they were the first ones to have the

2354
01:36:53,689 --> 01:36:52,260
idea and they're like nobody's ever

2355
01:36:55,430 --> 01:36:53,699
thought of doing this data collection

2356
01:36:58,189 --> 01:36:55,440
before what if we just did it and I feel

2357
01:37:00,050 --> 01:36:58,199
like ufology does that a lot just kind

2358
01:37:01,729 --> 01:37:00,060
of starts its own history over every

2359
01:37:02,930 --> 01:37:01,739
decade or so

2360
01:37:05,270 --> 01:37:02,940
um and so

2361
01:37:06,470 --> 01:37:05,280
um I think if they succeed in getting

2362
01:37:08,570 --> 01:37:06,480
things up

2363
01:37:10,729 --> 01:37:08,580
that's great we'll get some hard data

2364
01:37:11,510 --> 01:37:10,739
that that will be

2365
01:37:13,430 --> 01:37:11,520
um

2366
01:37:14,930 --> 01:37:13,440
useful even if there's nothing in it

2367
01:37:16,790 --> 01:37:14,940
because you can establish some like

2368
01:37:17,810 --> 01:37:16,800
lower bounds of how often things don't

2369
01:37:19,790 --> 01:37:17,820
occur

2370
01:37:22,430 --> 01:37:19,800
um but I actually think that the

2371
01:37:24,050 --> 01:37:22,440
the NASA panel maybe has the better idea

2372
01:37:26,209 --> 01:37:24,060
which relates to the second part of

2373
01:37:29,090 --> 01:37:26,219
Steve's question the surveillance

2374
01:37:30,950 --> 01:37:29,100
technology that already exists like

2375
01:37:33,470 --> 01:37:30,960
I don't know how many times I've thought

2376
01:37:36,010 --> 01:37:33,480
like the world is the most surveilled

2377
01:37:38,090 --> 01:37:36,020
that it has ever been there's satellites

2378
01:37:38,750 --> 01:37:38,100
thousands of them

2379
01:37:41,810 --> 01:37:38,760
um

2380
01:37:43,490 --> 01:37:41,820
many uh I guess I don't have the latest

2381
01:37:45,590 --> 01:37:43,500
number at least hundreds of them are

2382
01:37:48,770 --> 01:37:45,600
appointed at Earth looking at Earth

2383
01:37:52,850 --> 01:37:48,780
taking data on Earth we have a huge you

2384
01:37:54,590 --> 01:37:52,860
know tracts of radar systems all over

2385
01:37:57,229 --> 01:37:54,600
um we have

2386
01:37:59,149 --> 01:37:57,239
uh you know Earth observing there's just

2387
01:38:00,290 --> 01:37:59,159
so much data on the world that you could

2388
01:38:03,290 --> 01:38:00,300
mine

2389
01:38:06,050 --> 01:38:03,300
for information about

2390
01:38:08,750 --> 01:38:06,060
um UFOs without creating your own

2391
01:38:10,010 --> 01:38:08,760
special data collection system and I

2392
01:38:11,750 --> 01:38:10,020
think that might be a better way to go

2393
01:38:13,129 --> 01:38:11,760
which is what if people aren't familiar

2394
01:38:14,450 --> 01:38:13,139
with the NASA panel they're going to be

2395
01:38:16,189 --> 01:38:14,460
looking through the data they've

2396
01:38:18,229 --> 01:38:16,199
collected for decades and try to just

2397
01:38:20,870 --> 01:38:18,239
try to identify you know what might be

2398
01:38:22,850 --> 01:38:20,880
useful for this and I kind of feel like

2399
01:38:24,830 --> 01:38:22,860
yeah use what you've got you've got

2400
01:38:26,810 --> 01:38:24,840
terabytes and terabytes and terabytes

2401
01:38:28,070 --> 01:38:26,820
and terabytes that maybe you could hang

2402
01:38:30,770 --> 01:38:28,080
out with that for a little while before

2403
01:38:32,090 --> 01:38:30,780
you build something new

2404
01:38:33,590 --> 01:38:32,100
um and not not to keep bringing up

2405
01:38:37,450 --> 01:38:33,600
steady but that's actually the direction

2406
01:38:40,310 --> 01:38:37,460
the seti has gone you know the the

2407
01:38:42,649 --> 01:38:40,320
study Institute tried uh tried to and

2408
01:38:45,950 --> 01:38:42,659
did build their own telescope array to

2409
01:38:48,649 --> 01:38:45,960
look for radio signals from uh potential

2410
01:38:50,090 --> 01:38:48,659
extraterrestrial civilizations but like

2411
01:38:53,689 --> 01:38:50,100
there's only so much money in the world

2412
01:38:55,910 --> 01:38:53,699
they can only do so much work and so ins

2413
01:38:59,030 --> 01:38:55,920
in addition now they're trying to just

2414
01:39:01,010 --> 01:38:59,040
say hey there's tons and tons of data

2415
01:39:02,330 --> 01:39:01,020
coming from regular telescopes maybe we

2416
01:39:04,310 --> 01:39:02,340
could just get a copy of that and look

2417
01:39:05,510 --> 01:39:04,320
for weird stuff in it because it's

2418
01:39:06,890 --> 01:39:05,520
already there we don't want it to go to

2419
01:39:08,149 --> 01:39:06,900
waste so

2420
01:39:09,590 --> 01:39:08,159
yeah

2421
01:39:11,030 --> 01:39:09,600
well it goes back to what we were

2422
01:39:12,709 --> 01:39:11,040
talking about earlier in the episode too

2423
01:39:14,570 --> 01:39:12,719
this idea that we need to be looking for

2424
01:39:16,490 --> 01:39:14,580
physical nuts and bolts things in the

2425
01:39:18,590 --> 01:39:16,500
sky right

2426
01:39:20,209 --> 01:39:18,600
um which I don't know still feels like a

2427
01:39:25,850 --> 01:39:20,219
very Antiquated thing to me in many

2428
01:39:30,790 --> 01:39:28,189
yeah well I mean if you uh look back up

2429
01:39:34,490 --> 01:39:30,800
like Arthur C Clarke writing in like

2430
01:39:39,110 --> 01:39:34,500
1953 said he did not expect UFOs to be

2431
01:39:41,990 --> 01:39:39,120
material objects and uh if they are a of

2432
01:39:44,570 --> 01:39:42,000
of alien origin then they will be far

2433
01:39:46,129 --> 01:39:44,580
more technical technologically advanced

2434
01:39:47,510 --> 01:39:46,139
than anything we can conceive of so

2435
01:39:49,910 --> 01:39:47,520
people have been thinking about this for

2436
01:39:52,430 --> 01:39:49,920
a while dude did do you see it so on the

2437
01:39:54,530 --> 01:39:52,440
Discord just an aside so on the on the

2438
01:39:57,410 --> 01:39:54,540
Discord I posted this interview with

2439
01:39:58,970 --> 01:39:57,420
long john Neville who was like the Proto

2440
01:40:01,370 --> 01:39:58,980
Art Bell he was like this overnight

2441
01:40:04,189 --> 01:40:01,380
radio host out of New York City

2442
01:40:05,990 --> 01:40:04,199
um that hosted like a damn ski

2443
01:40:07,790 --> 01:40:06,000
um like all these shows about cave mind

2444
01:40:10,189 --> 01:40:07,800
control and stuff

2445
01:40:13,310 --> 01:40:10,199
um and he had this incredible panel

2446
01:40:16,010 --> 01:40:13,320
discussion with like Hastings Arthur C

2447
01:40:19,030 --> 01:40:16,020
Clarke and like Kehoe was Kehoe writing

2448
01:40:22,910 --> 01:40:21,290
if you would have been in the 60s I

2449
01:40:24,950 --> 01:40:22,920
think he's also in this panel it's

2450
01:40:26,450 --> 01:40:24,960
really interesting to listen to partly

2451
01:40:29,510 --> 01:40:26,460
because it's like holy [\h__\h] these are

2452
01:40:31,750 --> 01:40:29,520
like who's who if like UFO science

2453
01:40:35,090 --> 01:40:31,760
fiction whatever people but also because

2454
01:40:37,070 --> 01:40:35,100
the can the the tenor of the

2455
01:40:38,689 --> 01:40:37,080
conversation like you it could have

2456
01:40:40,790 --> 01:40:38,699
happened yesterday in terms of what they

2457
01:40:42,290 --> 01:40:40,800
say to each other about like well humans

2458
01:40:43,970 --> 01:40:42,300
have always been experiencing weird

2459
01:40:46,129 --> 01:40:43,980
stuff look at the Bible look at

2460
01:40:47,390 --> 01:40:46,139
hieroglyphics well certainly the

2461
01:40:48,770 --> 01:40:47,400
government knows something about this

2462
01:40:51,890 --> 01:40:48,780
but they're not telling us because of

2463
01:40:53,930 --> 01:40:51,900
Soviet Russia like it's like the exact

2464
01:40:55,970 --> 01:40:53,940
same lines only now we'd say China

2465
01:40:58,610 --> 01:40:55,980
instead of Russia but it's it's totally

2466
01:41:00,110 --> 01:40:58,620
worth listening to just for that kind of

2467
01:41:04,970 --> 01:41:00,120
you get a sense for kind of The

2468
01:41:09,410 --> 01:41:07,430
yeah I think Donald Menzel a physicist

2469
01:41:12,470 --> 01:41:09,420
who later uh was revealed to be working

2470
01:41:15,830 --> 01:41:12,480
for I believe the CIA he uh wrote a book

2471
01:41:18,350 --> 01:41:15,840
it was like in 1954 published uh in the

2472
01:41:21,110 --> 01:41:18,360
uh it's it's cited in the bibliography

2473
01:41:23,870 --> 01:41:21,120
of UFO material published in 1969 and uh

2474
01:41:26,030 --> 01:41:23,880
the uh summary is that uh Donald Menzel

2475
01:41:28,310 --> 01:41:26,040
declares that he has solved the UFO

2476
01:41:31,669 --> 01:41:28,320
Enigma finally or whatever it's like

2477
01:41:34,310 --> 01:41:31,679
1953 so a few you know yeah absolutely

2478
01:41:35,030 --> 01:41:34,320
we're sort of uh spinning wheels here I

2479
01:41:40,430 --> 01:41:35,040
think

2480
01:41:42,709 --> 01:41:40,440
even in like very strictly scientific

2481
01:41:44,209 --> 01:41:42,719
Fields I was just reading a thread on

2482
01:41:46,370 --> 01:41:44,219
Twitter

2483
01:41:48,830 --> 01:41:46,380
um the other day about I don't know if

2484
01:41:50,870 --> 01:41:48,840
people are familiar with the idea of uh

2485
01:41:53,209 --> 01:41:50,880
particle physics in crisis like our

2486
01:41:55,550 --> 01:41:53,219
standard standard model of how you know

2487
01:41:57,410 --> 01:41:55,560
uh what particles exist how they

2488
01:41:59,689 --> 01:41:57,420
interact how the How the Universe Works

2489
01:42:01,609 --> 01:41:59,699
is wrong and we built all these machines

2490
01:42:04,070 --> 01:42:01,619
and they can't find the answers and blah

2491
01:42:06,290 --> 01:42:04,080
blah blah and and someone was a

2492
01:42:08,209 --> 01:42:06,300
physicist was writing a thread on you

2493
01:42:09,649 --> 01:42:08,219
know the crisis in particle physics and

2494
01:42:11,750 --> 01:42:09,659
then he was quoting he was like I found

2495
01:42:13,609 --> 01:42:11,760
this amazing report on the crisis of

2496
01:42:15,830 --> 01:42:13,619
particle physics you won't believe what

2497
01:42:17,390 --> 01:42:15,840
it said so insightful and then like 11

2498
01:42:19,669 --> 01:42:17,400
tweets down he was like this was from

2499
01:42:22,490 --> 01:42:19,679
1977 you guys were doing the same thing

2500
01:42:25,010 --> 01:42:22,500
over again just you know the nature the

2501
01:42:26,290 --> 01:42:25,020
nature of us I guess yeah

2502
01:42:30,169 --> 01:42:26,300
yes

2503
01:42:32,510 --> 01:42:30,179
so so uh we are we have about 15 minutes

2504
01:42:35,209 --> 01:42:32,520
left uh of the show I'd love to switch

2505
01:42:37,850 --> 01:42:35,219
gears and talk about your upcoming book

2506
01:42:39,530 --> 01:42:37,860
um I'm super fascinated by atomic

2507
01:42:40,729 --> 01:42:39,540
culture and nuclear history

2508
01:42:42,590 --> 01:42:40,739
um and I was delighted to hear that

2509
01:42:43,669 --> 01:42:42,600
that's the subject of your forthcoming

2510
01:42:45,350 --> 01:42:43,679
book

2511
01:42:48,649 --> 01:42:45,360
um what got you started on that subject

2512
01:42:53,750 --> 01:42:51,709
s yeah I uh so I moved out to Colorado

2513
01:42:56,390 --> 01:42:53,760
about uh

2514
01:42:59,390 --> 01:42:56,400
six years ago I guess

2515
01:43:01,129 --> 01:42:59,400
um and I just started you know my job is

2516
01:43:02,750 --> 01:43:01,139
to find interesting science things and

2517
01:43:05,750 --> 01:43:02,760
write about them so I was looking for

2518
01:43:08,030 --> 01:43:05,760
scientific facilities around me and just

2519
01:43:10,370 --> 01:43:08,040
uh writing them being like hi my name is

2520
01:43:11,629 --> 01:43:10,380
Sarah can I come visit and see what you

2521
01:43:14,570 --> 01:43:11,639
do

2522
01:43:16,970 --> 01:43:14,580
um and uh people say yes sometimes and

2523
01:43:19,370 --> 01:43:16,980
so you know one of those places was uh

2524
01:43:20,570 --> 01:43:19,380
Los Alamos National Lab down in New

2525
01:43:22,310 --> 01:43:20,580
Mexico

2526
01:43:25,490 --> 01:43:22,320
um a few hours away from where I am now

2527
01:43:27,169 --> 01:43:25,500
and you know I had like a vague idea of

2528
01:43:29,990 --> 01:43:27,179
what the department of energy which

2529
01:43:31,970 --> 01:43:30,000
which runs the lab does and I knew that

2530
01:43:33,770 --> 01:43:31,980
they were not just in charge of energy

2531
01:43:36,530 --> 01:43:33,780
but that they were in charge of of

2532
01:43:38,149 --> 01:43:36,540
nuclear weapons but so I went to the lab

2533
01:43:39,410 --> 01:43:38,159
they gave me some very nice tours of

2534
01:43:41,090 --> 01:43:39,420
like here's what we do for Mars

2535
01:43:42,709 --> 01:43:41,100
exploration and here's what we do in

2536
01:43:44,050 --> 01:43:42,719
Dark Matter and here's some stuff about

2537
01:43:46,550 --> 01:43:44,060
you know

2538
01:43:48,709 --> 01:43:46,560
supernovy and then

2539
01:43:51,169 --> 01:43:48,719
um like eventually I was probably a

2540
01:43:52,609 --> 01:43:51,179
little slow slow on the uptake but I

2541
01:43:54,590 --> 01:43:52,619
realized that like all the things they

2542
01:43:57,590 --> 01:43:54,600
were studying pretty much in some way

2543
01:44:00,109 --> 01:43:57,600
related back to understanding the way

2544
01:44:02,330 --> 01:44:00,119
that nuclear weapons work and so there

2545
01:44:04,129 --> 01:44:02,340
was this like tiny top of the iceberg

2546
01:44:05,990 --> 01:44:04,139
that they were telling me about but the

2547
01:44:08,750 --> 01:44:06,000
the real purpose of most of it was the

2548
01:44:10,129 --> 01:44:08,760
rest of the iceberg underneath and so I

2549
01:44:10,910 --> 01:44:10,139
just kind of

2550
01:44:13,010 --> 01:44:10,920
um

2551
01:44:15,050 --> 01:44:13,020
became fascinated with the scientists

2552
01:44:17,570 --> 01:44:15,060
who did work on both of those things

2553
01:44:20,149 --> 01:44:17,580
like you know an astronomer who studied

2554
01:44:22,490 --> 01:44:20,159
Supernova and then got reeled into the

2555
01:44:24,229 --> 01:44:22,500
department of energy to study you know

2556
01:44:25,970 --> 01:44:24,239
the the nuclear reactions inside of

2557
01:44:28,609 --> 01:44:25,980
nuclear weapons and now kind of has like

2558
01:44:30,410 --> 01:44:28,619
a foot in both worlds and what do they

2559
01:44:33,590 --> 01:44:30,420
think of that

2560
01:44:37,729 --> 01:44:33,600
um and what is it like to work on uh you

2561
01:44:41,149 --> 01:44:37,739
know World destroying uh weapons and um

2562
01:44:42,649 --> 01:44:41,159
yeah I mean just like in ufology uh I

2563
01:44:45,290 --> 01:44:42,659
was

2564
01:44:46,790 --> 01:44:45,300
um surprised dumbly I shouldn't have

2565
01:44:48,350 --> 01:44:46,800
been surprised just just to find like a

2566
01:44:50,030 --> 01:44:48,360
huge diversity of opinions and

2567
01:44:51,890 --> 01:44:50,040
experiences and ways that people did

2568
01:44:54,890 --> 01:44:51,900
think about it political leanings and

2569
01:44:56,330 --> 01:44:54,900
and everything and so it's just um once

2570
01:44:58,430 --> 01:44:56,340
again it was too long for an article

2571
01:45:01,189 --> 01:44:58,440
nobody wants that so I had to go write a

2572
01:45:03,470 --> 01:45:01,199
book instead so could could you speak on

2573
01:45:05,810 --> 01:45:03,480
that a little bit just like how do

2574
01:45:07,129 --> 01:45:05,820
people who are good people we spoke a

2575
01:45:09,470 --> 01:45:07,139
little bit before about how everybody's

2576
01:45:11,689 --> 01:45:09,480
like an individual in an institution how

2577
01:45:15,050 --> 01:45:11,699
are these people going to work can kind

2578
01:45:16,550 --> 01:45:15,060
of working within the one industry in

2579
01:45:19,250 --> 01:45:16,560
the history of the world that could like

2580
01:45:21,070 --> 01:45:19,260
end human civilization how do they go

2581
01:45:22,910 --> 01:45:21,080
home and do like feel okay about that

2582
01:45:24,350 --> 01:45:22,920
well if you want to get an interview

2583
01:45:27,890 --> 01:45:24,360
with them you shouldn't phrase it like

2584
01:45:30,770 --> 01:45:27,900
that yeah yeah no expectation there so

2585
01:45:31,910 --> 01:45:30,780
yeah um yeah no I'm just kidding um no

2586
01:45:34,370 --> 01:45:31,920
I'm

2587
01:45:36,290 --> 01:45:34,380
uh what I have found is

2588
01:45:38,689 --> 01:45:36,300
a caveat that the people they let me

2589
01:45:41,030 --> 01:45:38,699
talk to at the lab like access is highly

2590
01:45:43,070 --> 01:45:41,040
controlled in the end I talk to who I'm

2591
01:45:45,410 --> 01:45:43,080
allowed to talk to and so most of the

2592
01:45:47,930 --> 01:45:45,420
people I talk to would agree with you

2593
01:45:49,310 --> 01:45:47,940
about that characterization they

2594
01:45:50,709 --> 01:45:49,320
arguably

2595
01:45:53,750 --> 01:45:50,719
um

2596
01:45:55,970 --> 01:45:53,760
dislike nuclear weapons and the nuclear

2597
01:45:58,609 --> 01:45:55,980
weapons complex more than the average

2598
01:46:00,350 --> 01:45:58,619
person because they know more but

2599
01:46:02,330 --> 01:46:00,360
they're kind of some of them are of the

2600
01:46:04,669 --> 01:46:02,340
opinion that like

2601
01:46:05,930 --> 01:46:04,679
deterrence this idea that if we have

2602
01:46:07,729 --> 01:46:05,940
weapons and the other people have

2603
01:46:09,169 --> 01:46:07,739
weapons no one will use the weapons

2604
01:46:11,750 --> 01:46:09,179
because we're constantly threatening

2605
01:46:14,629 --> 01:46:11,760
each other like some of them believe

2606
01:46:22,970 --> 01:46:14,639
that the majority of them believe it

2607
01:46:26,209 --> 01:46:24,050
come at it from and we're just like

2608
01:46:28,250 --> 01:46:26,219
realist perspective of like nuclear

2609
01:46:31,430 --> 01:46:28,260
weapons exist they're going to continue

2610
01:46:33,169 --> 01:46:31,440
to exist what we have right now is a set

2611
01:46:35,689 --> 01:46:33,179
of weapons that is

2612
01:46:37,189 --> 01:46:35,699
getting older and needs upkeep and then

2613
01:46:40,189 --> 01:46:37,199
if we're going to keep them someone

2614
01:46:42,169 --> 01:46:40,199
needs to make sure that you know they

2615
01:46:45,350 --> 01:46:42,179
work right and they're not decaying and

2616
01:46:47,149 --> 01:46:45,360
I would rather that be me a person who

2617
01:46:51,050 --> 01:46:47,159
hates nuclear weapons than someone who's

2618
01:46:53,390 --> 01:46:51,060
like man I love a bomb and so

2619
01:46:56,030 --> 01:46:53,400
um I think that's most of that and so

2620
01:46:59,689 --> 01:46:56,040
yeah I think a phrase I heard a lot was

2621
01:47:01,729 --> 01:46:59,699
yeah to turns will have to do until we

2622
01:47:04,370 --> 01:47:01,739
can have disarmament and they would all

2623
01:47:05,510 --> 01:47:04,380
prefer disarmament but until then they

2624
01:47:07,669 --> 01:47:05,520
would rather have like good people

2625
01:47:09,530 --> 01:47:07,679
working on it which I mean some of that

2626
01:47:11,149 --> 01:47:09,540
is you know they work there they have to

2627
01:47:14,209 --> 01:47:11,159
rationalize it but I think a lot of it

2628
01:47:16,850 --> 01:47:14,219
was genuine also

2629
01:47:21,189 --> 01:47:16,860
have you been to Cheyenne Mountain

2630
01:47:23,209 --> 01:47:21,199
I have actually yeah oh yeah tell us

2631
01:47:24,890 --> 01:47:23,219
uh yeah that was another thing where

2632
01:47:27,410 --> 01:47:24,900
when I moved to Colorado I was like hey

2633
01:47:29,050 --> 01:47:27,420
Cheyenne Mountain what's up I'm totally

2634
01:47:31,129 --> 01:47:29,060
a journalist you want to let me inside

2635
01:47:33,530 --> 01:47:31,139
uh and

2636
01:47:34,729 --> 01:47:33,540
um they did and actually later I asked

2637
01:47:36,350 --> 01:47:34,739
them why because at the time they were

2638
01:47:37,729 --> 01:47:36,360
only letting a few journalists in per

2639
01:47:39,649 --> 01:47:37,739
year and they said that they thought I

2640
01:47:41,750 --> 01:47:39,659
would write an article that scared their

2641
01:47:43,189 --> 01:47:41,760
enemies and I was like you don't know me

2642
01:47:44,990 --> 01:47:43,199
at all

2643
01:47:48,410 --> 01:47:45,000
um

2644
01:47:50,450 --> 01:47:48,420
yeah it was deeply strange you just get

2645
01:47:52,250 --> 01:47:50,460
off the highway you drive up a road that

2646
01:47:55,430 --> 01:47:52,260
keeps telling you to stop driving up the

2647
01:47:59,450 --> 01:47:55,440
road or bad things will happen to you

2648
01:48:01,250 --> 01:47:59,460
um and you end up at this opening in a

2649
01:48:03,950 --> 01:48:01,260
mountain in the side of a mountain you

2650
01:48:07,790 --> 01:48:03,960
drive a car inside and there's just like

2651
01:48:10,010 --> 01:48:07,800
these giant blast doors meant to

2652
01:48:12,470 --> 01:48:10,020
um you know keep things from outside

2653
01:48:15,649 --> 01:48:12,480
from going in and keep things

2654
01:48:17,629 --> 01:48:15,659
um inside safe and then I mean

2655
01:48:19,070 --> 01:48:17,639
technically it's like a it's it's a lot

2656
01:48:21,350 --> 01:48:19,080
of buildings it's kind of like a mini

2657
01:48:23,290 --> 01:48:21,360
Office Park of giant buildings on

2658
01:48:26,030 --> 01:48:23,300
Springs underneath this Granite Mountain

2659
01:48:28,550 --> 01:48:26,040
but you can't see them all at once it's

2660
01:48:30,890 --> 01:48:28,560
just like a tiny opening it looks like

2661
01:48:32,270 --> 01:48:30,900
the entrance to like a country club you

2662
01:48:34,850 --> 01:48:32,280
walk in

2663
01:48:36,590 --> 01:48:34,860
um and then it also looks like an office

2664
01:48:38,330 --> 01:48:36,600
building inside except there's people

2665
01:48:40,370 --> 01:48:38,340
who are kind of keeping watch for

2666
01:48:41,990 --> 01:48:40,380
whether anyone is sending nuclear

2667
01:48:44,390 --> 01:48:42,000
weapons the coolest part here's the

2668
01:48:46,310 --> 01:48:44,400
coolest part uh I think that they just

2669
01:48:47,030 --> 01:48:46,320
had like a natural

2670
01:48:49,490 --> 01:48:47,040
um

2671
01:48:51,290 --> 01:48:49,500
well they had dug a depression out of

2672
01:48:52,729 --> 01:48:51,300
out of the Rock in one part of the cave

2673
01:48:55,310 --> 01:48:52,739
and they were like here's where we put

2674
01:48:57,649 --> 01:48:55,320
our Diesel and it was just like a huge

2675
01:48:58,790 --> 01:48:57,659
thing of diesel inside the Mountain

2676
01:49:00,169 --> 01:48:58,800
hanging out from running their

2677
01:49:03,669 --> 01:49:00,179
generators

2678
01:49:07,250 --> 01:49:03,679
so it's like a pool of diesel yeah wow

2679
01:49:10,669 --> 01:49:07,260
yeah I know I'm sure it's still good in

2680
01:49:11,810 --> 01:49:10,679
there please yeah it was beautiful

2681
01:49:14,870 --> 01:49:11,820
um

2682
01:49:17,030 --> 01:49:14,880
yeah it's a it's a it was I can't

2683
01:49:19,370 --> 01:49:17,040
imagine us uh undertaking a construction

2684
01:49:20,930 --> 01:49:19,380
project like that now but in the Cold

2685
01:49:22,910 --> 01:49:20,940
War they had a lot of fear and a lot of

2686
01:49:25,010 --> 01:49:22,920
time on their hands so did you get a

2687
01:49:28,550 --> 01:49:25,020
sense from uh all these people you spoke

2688
01:49:31,129 --> 01:49:28,560
to are they hopeful that we like as the

2689
01:49:34,689 --> 01:49:31,139
experts that we can get out of this or

2690
01:49:39,709 --> 01:49:37,669
get out of this like get get rid of like

2691
01:49:41,810 --> 01:49:39,719
the nuclear nuclear weapons like is

2692
01:49:44,390 --> 01:49:41,820
there the Glaciers are gonna melt and

2693
01:49:46,370 --> 01:49:44,400
we're all gonna drown Okay so

2694
01:49:48,410 --> 01:49:46,380
it's only this nuclear concerns are

2695
01:49:49,970 --> 01:49:48,420
secondary it's kind of like the thing

2696
01:49:51,350 --> 01:49:49,980
where it's like you know with people all

2697
01:49:54,709 --> 01:49:51,360
over the world they got their fingers on

2698
01:49:56,870 --> 01:49:54,719
the button like statistically it should

2699
01:49:59,870 --> 01:49:56,880
have already happened so it's like we're

2700
01:50:01,609 --> 01:49:59,880
sort of in like bar time right now uh I

2701
01:50:04,490 --> 01:50:01,619
guess it's sort of my view like how how

2702
01:50:06,950 --> 01:50:04,500
are the experts sort of reading that

2703
01:50:08,870 --> 01:50:06,960
yeah the experts especially you know the

2704
01:50:10,609 --> 01:50:08,880
the invasion of Ukraine happened when I

2705
01:50:12,470 --> 01:50:10,619
was in the middle of of working on the

2706
01:50:14,870 --> 01:50:12,480
book and I visited Los Alamos just like

2707
01:50:17,450 --> 01:50:14,880
a few days after I started and I

2708
01:50:18,950 --> 01:50:17,460
expected to go there and uh be comforted

2709
01:50:21,290 --> 01:50:18,960
when I asked questions that they were

2710
01:50:24,169 --> 01:50:21,300
like a little bit less afraid of me than

2711
01:50:26,030 --> 01:50:24,179
me of World War III and they were like

2712
01:50:27,649 --> 01:50:26,040
no actually we're working on some stuff

2713
01:50:31,370 --> 01:50:27,659
to see about what happens if that

2714
01:50:34,609 --> 01:50:31,380
happens like I don't really like that

2715
01:50:37,129 --> 01:50:34,619
answer that's like a mine shaft Gap from

2716
01:50:38,570 --> 01:50:37,139
Doctor Strangelove it's like we'll just

2717
01:50:42,410 --> 01:50:38,580
give up and start digging the mine

2718
01:50:45,410 --> 01:50:42,420
shafts at this point because yeah yeah I

2719
01:50:46,729 --> 01:50:45,420
mean I think that oh sorry go ahead no I

2720
01:50:48,470 --> 01:50:46,739
was gonna ask a question so please

2721
01:50:50,750 --> 01:50:48,480
finish your thought oh I was just gonna

2722
01:50:52,370 --> 01:50:50,760
say I think they are realistically

2723
01:50:56,030 --> 01:50:52,380
afraid of things like they don't think

2724
01:50:58,370 --> 01:50:56,040
that nothing will ever happen and I

2725
01:50:59,870 --> 01:50:58,380
think they and outside policy experts

2726
01:51:02,330 --> 01:50:59,880
kind of

2727
01:51:03,709 --> 01:51:02,340
um tend to agree that the long like the

2728
01:51:05,570 --> 01:51:03,719
longer you have them sitting around

2729
01:51:07,550 --> 01:51:05,580
whether through accident or

2730
01:51:08,629 --> 01:51:07,560
misunderstanding or deliberate attack

2731
01:51:10,850 --> 01:51:08,639
like

2732
01:51:13,189 --> 01:51:10,860
something is going to happen sometime

2733
01:51:14,930 --> 01:51:13,199
probably and so

2734
01:51:17,270 --> 01:51:14,940
um yeah I mean it's it's scary but

2735
01:51:19,550 --> 01:51:17,280
hopefully the the glaciers wash over us

2736
01:51:20,450 --> 01:51:19,560
before that it must be a more peaceful

2737
01:51:23,990 --> 01:51:20,460
death

2738
01:51:29,990 --> 01:51:26,390
I love this I love discussing the

2739
01:51:35,270 --> 01:51:30,000
eschatology of the modern world uh on my

2740
01:51:39,770 --> 01:51:37,609
um Sarah so I was gonna ask just off the

2741
01:51:41,090 --> 01:51:39,780
cuff if you have any cool stories or

2742
01:51:43,850 --> 01:51:41,100
things you found out while you were

2743
01:51:46,010 --> 01:51:43,860
researching this book

2744
01:51:48,609 --> 01:51:46,020
hmm

2745
01:51:54,590 --> 01:51:48,619
that is a good question

2746
01:51:58,550 --> 01:51:56,689
I mean the answer is definitely yes so

2747
01:52:00,770 --> 01:51:58,560
there's a file right below my finger of

2748
01:52:03,890 --> 01:52:00,780
all the coolest stuff

2749
01:52:06,290 --> 01:52:03,900
um my favorite you know somebody who I

2750
01:52:07,970 --> 01:52:06,300
uh could have followed throughout the

2751
01:52:09,229 --> 01:52:07,980
book at least the draft I turned in

2752
01:52:13,010 --> 01:52:09,239
we'll see what we'll see what they

2753
01:52:14,629 --> 01:52:13,020
actually publish but um is a a woman who

2754
01:52:17,030 --> 01:52:14,639
works on

2755
01:52:18,950 --> 01:52:17,040
um detecting nuclear detonations from

2756
01:52:21,350 --> 01:52:18,960
space like the satellites The Watch to

2757
01:52:25,729 --> 01:52:21,360
see if anyone is testing

2758
01:52:29,629 --> 01:52:25,739
um weapons or exploding one uh in in

2759
01:52:31,370 --> 01:52:29,639
anger and she went to school in Colorado

2760
01:52:33,890 --> 01:52:31,380
right across from the place where they

2761
01:52:35,330 --> 01:52:33,900
used to produce a bunch of the plutonium

2762
01:52:37,790 --> 01:52:35,340
that goes in the middle of weapons and

2763
01:52:40,490 --> 01:52:37,800
she went to the Super liberal kind of

2764
01:52:41,870 --> 01:52:40,500
hippie school where they her friends all

2765
01:52:44,510 --> 01:52:41,880
used to go to this place which was

2766
01:52:46,970 --> 01:52:44,520
called Rocky Flats and protest the

2767
01:52:50,209 --> 01:52:46,980
making of these plutonium pits and then

2768
01:52:52,729 --> 01:52:50,219
now yeah it was very cool

2769
01:52:55,189 --> 01:52:52,739
um now she's working you know in in

2770
01:52:57,590 --> 01:52:55,199
non-proliferation in like a pretty peace

2771
01:52:59,149 --> 01:52:57,600
peaceful part of the nuclear complex but

2772
01:53:02,030 --> 01:52:59,159
at the place where they're about to be

2773
01:53:03,950 --> 01:53:02,040
making plutonium pits again and she's

2774
01:53:06,410 --> 01:53:03,960
like the nuclear complex is just

2775
01:53:07,609 --> 01:53:06,420
following me throughout my whole life

2776
01:53:09,890 --> 01:53:07,619
because they're about to start making

2777
01:53:14,169 --> 01:53:09,900
that plutonium there so

2778
01:53:16,310 --> 01:53:14,179
um but yeah so I guess full circle

2779
01:53:17,930 --> 01:53:16,320
non-coincidence coincidences in the

2780
01:53:20,030 --> 01:53:17,940
nuclear complex

2781
01:53:22,189 --> 01:53:20,040
Sarah would you say that you're uh

2782
01:53:24,470 --> 01:53:22,199
direct engagement uh it changed your

2783
01:53:27,290 --> 01:53:24,480
view at all on like uh nuclear power or

2784
01:53:29,330 --> 01:53:27,300
anything like uh engaging with it hasn't

2785
01:53:32,750 --> 01:53:29,340
made you feel more positive about it or

2786
01:53:37,370 --> 01:53:33,830
um

2787
01:53:42,830 --> 01:53:39,830
that is a hard question

2788
01:53:45,109 --> 01:53:42,840
um I mean from a purely like physics

2789
01:53:49,010 --> 01:53:45,119
economics and climate change perspective

2790
01:53:49,850 --> 01:53:49,020
like nuclear power is awesome but I

2791
01:53:52,790 --> 01:53:49,860
think

2792
01:53:54,890 --> 01:53:52,800
spending more time around

2793
01:53:56,330 --> 01:53:54,900
um anything probably makes you a little

2794
01:53:58,669 --> 01:53:56,340
more cautious about it like I think

2795
01:54:00,709 --> 01:53:58,679
humans will always run reactors

2796
01:54:02,510 --> 01:54:00,719
companies probably will always run

2797
01:54:04,490 --> 01:54:02,520
reactors humans are going to make

2798
01:54:07,310 --> 01:54:04,500
mistakes and companies are gonna cut

2799
01:54:10,370 --> 01:54:07,320
Corners so I think I feel a little bit

2800
01:54:12,410 --> 01:54:10,380
more maybe the the risks that I just of

2801
01:54:16,129 --> 01:54:12,420
humans running at Enterprise not of not

2802
01:54:18,649 --> 01:54:16,139
of nuclear power on its own and so um

2803
01:54:20,390 --> 01:54:18,659
uh not that I want the government to run

2804
01:54:22,070 --> 01:54:20,400
everything in our lives but I think I

2805
01:54:26,390 --> 01:54:22,080
would like to see some extremely heavy

2806
01:54:29,030 --> 01:54:26,400
oversight of things going on

2807
01:54:30,770 --> 01:54:29,040
but actually uh side note people who

2808
01:54:32,510 --> 01:54:30,780
people who work on nuclear things are I

2809
01:54:34,189 --> 01:54:32,520
think much less afraid of radiation than

2810
01:54:36,410 --> 01:54:34,199
the average person who kind of hears

2811
01:54:38,689 --> 01:54:36,420
radiation and runs screaming but people

2812
01:54:40,010 --> 01:54:38,699
who work with it every day

2813
01:54:41,750 --> 01:54:40,020
um you know understand a little more

2814
01:54:43,850 --> 01:54:41,760
about how much is required for something

2815
01:54:45,290 --> 01:54:43,860
bad to happen and that actually we're

2816
01:54:47,390 --> 01:54:45,300
all getting hit by a bunch of radiation

2817
01:54:52,010 --> 01:54:47,400
right now and we're technically fine I

2818
01:54:53,629 --> 01:54:52,020
think so yeah yeah I am a I studied

2819
01:54:55,189 --> 01:54:53,639
nuclear engineering for a few years in

2820
01:54:57,109 --> 01:54:55,199
college and did lots of work at the

2821
01:54:58,970 --> 01:54:57,119
linear accelerator facility at my school

2822
01:55:00,950 --> 01:54:58,980
and

2823
01:55:04,189 --> 01:55:00,960
um that I mean I wouldn't say I'm

2824
01:55:06,410 --> 01:55:04,199
totally flip about it but uh

2825
01:55:09,050 --> 01:55:06,420
I mean sleeping next to someone in bed

2826
01:55:10,970 --> 01:55:09,060
is more radiation than somebody gets

2827
01:55:13,129 --> 01:55:10,980
working on a nuclear power plant and

2828
01:55:15,649 --> 01:55:13,139
like the White House is too radioactive

2829
01:55:17,689 --> 01:55:15,659
to host a nuclear power plant to give

2830
01:55:20,030 --> 01:55:17,699
you an idea of like just how tightly

2831
01:55:21,410 --> 01:55:20,040
regulated a lot of this stuff is

2832
01:55:23,330 --> 01:55:21,420
um yeah

2833
01:55:25,070 --> 01:55:23,340
so yeah so we are just coming up at the

2834
01:55:28,490 --> 01:55:25,080
top of the hour

2835
01:55:30,669 --> 01:55:28,500
um Sarah where can we find you and when

2836
01:55:34,609 --> 01:55:30,679
is your book coming out

2837
01:55:38,390 --> 01:55:34,619
you can find me um I'm on Twitter at

2838
01:55:40,790 --> 01:55:38,400
schools Sarah s-c-o-l-e-s Sarah

2839
01:55:44,870 --> 01:55:40,800
um and I have a website that is uh the

2840
01:55:47,629 --> 01:55:44,880
reverse of that is sarahschools.com and

2841
01:55:49,430 --> 01:55:47,639
um uh my both is coming out good

2842
01:55:51,950 --> 01:55:49,440
question I would also like to know the

2843
01:55:54,350 --> 01:55:51,960
answer but I think probably

2844
01:55:57,470 --> 01:55:54,360
um the very beginning of of next year

2845
01:55:59,629 --> 01:55:57,480
like January February of next year so

2846
01:56:01,910 --> 01:55:59,639
um don't forget about it keep an eye out

2847
01:56:04,189 --> 01:56:01,920
we won't and in fact after it comes out

2848
01:56:05,810 --> 01:56:04,199
I'm sure I'll be sliding into your DMs

2849
01:56:08,629 --> 01:56:05,820
again to be like hey Sarah come on the

2850
01:56:10,189 --> 01:56:08,639
show let's talk about things yeah I'll

2851
01:56:12,290 --> 01:56:10,199
be I'll be responding because guess what

2852
01:56:15,189 --> 01:56:12,300
is also an old boys club is the nuclear

2853
01:56:20,450 --> 01:56:18,770
yes yeah yes

2854
01:56:22,550 --> 01:56:20,460
um yes many thanks for Michael Redmond

2855
01:56:24,530 --> 01:56:22,560
uh for joining this show tonight also

2856
01:56:25,970 --> 01:56:24,540
known as Fringe Quest

2857
01:56:28,010 --> 01:56:25,980
um you know you're you're definitely one

2858
01:56:30,050 --> 01:56:28,020
of our audience's favorites thank you so

2859
01:56:32,390 --> 01:56:30,060
much for jumping on tonight uh we really

2860
01:56:34,370 --> 01:56:32,400
appreciate you joining us yeah thanks so

2861
01:56:36,350 --> 01:56:34,380
much for having me it's been fun

2862
01:56:37,609 --> 01:56:36,360
yeah all right have a good night Sarah

2863
01:56:41,270 --> 01:56:37,619
take care

2864
01:56:46,490 --> 01:56:43,850
all right gentlemen Sarah scholes pretty

2865
01:56:49,129 --> 01:56:46,500
great yeah that was really great

2866
01:56:52,070 --> 01:56:49,139
yeah tons of fun to talk to just an

2867
01:56:54,649 --> 01:56:52,080
incredible breadth uh of interest and

2868
01:56:55,790 --> 01:56:54,659
knowledge just a treasure

2869
01:56:58,430 --> 01:56:55,800
all right

2870
01:56:59,510 --> 01:56:58,440
let's do the standard end of show round

2871
01:57:01,010 --> 01:56:59,520
robin

2872
01:57:03,770 --> 01:57:01,020
Lewis

2873
01:57:05,090 --> 01:57:03,780
Nick Campbell what's going on what are

2874
01:57:06,669 --> 01:57:05,100
you guys working on

2875
01:57:08,570 --> 01:57:06,679
laughs

2876
01:57:12,050 --> 01:57:08,580
oh I'm

2877
01:57:16,010 --> 01:57:13,490
yeah

2878
01:57:17,689 --> 01:57:16,020
sorry sorry Lewis I'm so

2879
01:57:18,709 --> 01:57:17,699
I'm sorry I'm writing an article about

2880
01:57:26,450 --> 01:57:18,719
um

2881
01:57:29,030 --> 01:57:26,460
just kind of trying to find some general

2882
01:57:31,729 --> 01:57:29,040
Trends within the historical

2883
01:57:34,010 --> 01:57:31,739
trajectory of that whole narrative and

2884
01:57:35,810 --> 01:57:34,020
Saga

2885
01:57:37,609 --> 01:57:35,820
I'm looking forward to that

2886
01:57:40,729 --> 01:57:37,619
yeah it'll be outside

2887
01:57:43,490 --> 01:57:40,739
I'm not doing anything

2888
01:57:44,930 --> 01:57:43,500
I'm going to bed after this does your

2889
01:57:47,030 --> 01:57:44,940
does your Mac work

2890
01:57:49,729 --> 01:57:47,040
no I wish

2891
01:57:51,830 --> 01:57:49,739
um I plugged it in once and uh

2892
01:57:53,510 --> 01:57:51,840
Sparks and some smoke came out of it so

2893
01:57:55,149 --> 01:57:53,520
I thought everything's fried so it's

2894
01:57:58,609 --> 01:57:55,159
just a decoration now

2895
01:58:01,189 --> 01:57:58,619
but uh beneath that is a palmistry board

2896
01:58:02,709 --> 01:58:01,199
game if you ever want to like bust that

2897
01:58:06,350 --> 01:58:02,719
out on the chat and play it together

2898
01:58:09,290 --> 01:58:06,360
that's yes we should we should do an

2899
01:58:11,810 --> 01:58:09,300
open lines palmistry night oh I want to

2900
01:58:14,390 --> 01:58:11,820
do a zener card night too I gotta go oh

2901
01:58:15,890 --> 01:58:14,400
dude definitely yes we have we have

2902
01:58:17,030 --> 01:58:15,900
guests the next couple weeks but then

2903
01:58:18,530 --> 01:58:17,040
there's like a stretch where we don't

2904
01:58:21,709 --> 01:58:18,540
have anyone and we should totally do

2905
01:58:23,870 --> 01:58:21,719
like a senior card night I would love it

2906
01:58:26,510 --> 01:58:23,880
so that would be awesome my favorite

2907
01:58:28,669 --> 01:58:26,520
copy of uh kreskin's ESP too if we want

2908
01:58:30,410 --> 01:58:28,679
to do some pendulum work oh hell yeah

2909
01:58:32,149 --> 01:58:30,420
I'm gonna try to like remotely control

2910
01:58:34,189 --> 01:58:32,159
I'll be sitting here with like my

2911
01:58:35,870 --> 01:58:34,199
selenite and rose quartz trying to

2912
01:58:37,550 --> 01:58:35,880
mentally control the pendulum it'll be

2913
01:58:40,629 --> 01:58:37,560
awesome Dean Braden will call me the

2914
01:58:42,490 --> 01:58:40,639
next day and invite me to join us

2915
01:58:44,990 --> 01:58:42,500
in my life

2916
01:58:48,109 --> 01:58:45,000
anyway Campbell what about you man

2917
01:58:50,350 --> 01:58:48,119
what's going on a lot of shoveling snow

2918
01:58:52,430 --> 01:58:50,360
a lot of snow

2919
01:58:55,189 --> 01:58:52,440
keeping busy

2920
01:58:56,689 --> 01:58:55,199
but no I'm not like I'm not well you

2921
01:58:58,850 --> 01:58:56,699
know I'm done doing stuff but uh nothing

2922
01:59:00,229 --> 01:58:58,860
too major on the UFOs subject right now

2923
01:59:02,629 --> 01:59:00,239
I feel like my website's where I wanted

2924
01:59:04,250 --> 01:59:02,639
to be and uh I'm just kind of like

2925
01:59:07,250 --> 01:59:04,260
enjoying what we're doing here on the

2926
01:59:09,950 --> 01:59:07,260
show and uh Instead try you know just

2927
01:59:12,169 --> 01:59:09,960
coasting kind of I guess uh I don't have

2928
01:59:14,330 --> 01:59:12,179
much interesting to say I am enjoying

2929
01:59:16,850 --> 01:59:14,340
our weekly chats though and I like to

2930
01:59:18,229 --> 01:59:16,860
stay up to date on what's going on so

2931
01:59:20,750 --> 01:59:18,239
what about you Leah what have you been

2932
01:59:23,750 --> 01:59:20,760
up to what have I been up to

2933
01:59:25,250 --> 01:59:23,760
um anything good I mean anything good uh

2934
01:59:27,649 --> 01:59:25,260
I have been up to lots of things very

2935
01:59:29,390 --> 01:59:27,659
few of them good but nothing terrible so

2936
01:59:31,850 --> 01:59:29,400
I guess that's okay

2937
01:59:34,010 --> 01:59:31,860
um you know uh still working on Art Bell

2938
01:59:35,390 --> 01:59:34,020
gonna be working on Art bill I don't

2939
01:59:37,189 --> 01:59:35,400
know my goal is to have a draft put

2940
01:59:38,510 --> 01:59:37,199
together by the end of the year

2941
01:59:40,430 --> 01:59:38,520
um and I plan on doing it all

2942
01:59:42,830 --> 01:59:40,440
electronically and not charging for the

2943
01:59:44,030 --> 01:59:42,840
book I'm just gonna give it up free nice

2944
01:59:46,370 --> 01:59:44,040
um

2945
01:59:48,709 --> 01:59:46,380
uh besides that

2946
01:59:50,270 --> 01:59:48,719
um you know uh behind the scenes I

2947
01:59:52,310 --> 01:59:50,280
mentioned it last week jumping in as

2948
01:59:53,870 --> 01:59:52,320
like a co-pilot on calling out beings

2949
01:59:56,330 --> 01:59:53,880
periodically

2950
01:59:58,790 --> 01:59:56,340
um gonna be probably kicking off like my

2951
02:00:00,589 --> 01:59:58,800
own private interview series sometime in

2952
02:00:02,629 --> 02:00:00,599
the near-ish future I actually just

2953
02:00:05,149 --> 02:00:02,639
reached out to Josh cutchen who wrote

2954
02:00:06,470 --> 02:00:05,159
the Ecology of souls I have a handful of

2955
02:00:08,510 --> 02:00:06,480
other people so it's not going to be UFO

2956
02:00:10,070 --> 02:00:08,520
related it'll be more like just like

2957
02:00:11,689 --> 02:00:10,080
weird [\h__\h] I'm into actually I'm trying

2958
02:00:14,450 --> 02:00:11,699
to get a rare book librarian I know

2959
02:00:16,490 --> 02:00:14,460
who's specifically specializes and like

2960
02:00:20,089 --> 02:00:16,500
queer erotic literature from like the

2961
02:00:21,530 --> 02:00:20,099
40s and 50s so like pretty much like any

2962
02:00:23,450 --> 02:00:21,540
of the wild and weird people in my life

2963
02:00:24,770 --> 02:00:23,460
I want to start talking to more um it

2964
02:00:27,410 --> 02:00:24,780
could be cool actually

2965
02:00:29,870 --> 02:00:27,420
yeah yeah I'm super excited her name's

2966
02:00:32,330 --> 02:00:29,880
Rebecca Baum and she's at IU

2967
02:00:34,550 --> 02:00:32,340
um so yeah so obviously Sarah tonight

2968
02:00:36,530 --> 02:00:34,560
next week we have Tom estimate of the

2969
02:00:39,050 --> 02:00:36,540
situation which I have

2970
02:00:41,209 --> 02:00:39,060
another copy of his comic here it's the

2971
02:00:43,310 --> 02:00:41,219
same comic just or excuse me graphic

2972
02:00:44,149 --> 02:00:43,320
novel the new cover

2973
02:00:46,729 --> 02:00:44,159
um

2974
02:00:49,490 --> 02:00:46,739
we're having Tama next week

2975
02:00:51,589 --> 02:00:49,500
um then we have Jay Shanks who runs

2976
02:00:53,870 --> 02:00:51,599
pericon he does like Cryptids High

2977
02:00:55,070 --> 02:00:53,880
strangeness for Tiana he'll be on the

2978
02:00:56,570 --> 02:00:55,080
week after

2979
02:00:58,490 --> 02:00:56,580
um then we're gonna be joined by Jeff

2980
02:01:00,410 --> 02:00:58,500
from strange Recon to talk about

2981
02:01:02,570 --> 02:01:00,420
military Black Ops Tech and UFO

2982
02:01:05,270 --> 02:01:02,580
Community nice and then finally on March

2983
02:01:06,950 --> 02:01:05,280
1st we'll be hosting Mark of Visconti

2984
02:01:08,209 --> 02:01:06,960
um so he'll be dialing in from Italy so

2985
02:01:10,250 --> 02:01:08,219
we're gonna have to adjust the timing

2986
02:01:12,709 --> 02:01:10,260
it'll be a mid-afternoon show

2987
02:01:15,229 --> 02:01:12,719
um but he's into occultism anti-fascism

2988
02:01:17,089 --> 02:01:15,239
magic Western esoteric traditions and

2989
02:01:18,890 --> 02:01:17,099
actually is just publishing a book on

2990
02:01:21,290 --> 02:01:18,900
Crowley magic

2991
02:01:23,270 --> 02:01:21,300
um is a real deal and obviously not UFO

2992
02:01:25,189 --> 02:01:23,280
but he'll be a blast

2993
02:01:26,810 --> 02:01:25,199
of your cool stuff that sounds awesome

2994
02:01:28,370 --> 02:01:26,820
lots of good stuff to look forward super

2995
02:01:33,830 --> 02:01:28,380
excited yeah

2996
02:01:38,209 --> 02:01:35,810
we're definitely it was aperture trying

2997
02:01:40,790 --> 02:01:38,219
to talk to more people not necessarily

2998
02:01:42,109 --> 02:01:40,800
restricted to UFOs or ufology

2999
02:01:43,609 --> 02:01:42,119
um as long as it's someone interested in

3000
02:01:45,649 --> 02:01:43,619
a good faith conversation we'd love to

3001
02:01:47,689 --> 02:01:45,659
talk to them so feel free to DM me shoot

3002
02:01:49,550 --> 02:01:47,699
me an email message us on Discord and

3003
02:01:51,830 --> 02:01:49,560
I'll try to get someone on the show yeah

3004
02:01:56,149 --> 02:01:51,840
people jump on the Discord it's coming

3005
02:01:58,310 --> 02:01:56,159
with me no tell me I'm wrong we we don't

3006
02:02:00,229 --> 02:01:58,320
need to argue to do that but yep Discord

3007
02:02:01,310 --> 02:02:00,239
is linked in the show description

3008
02:02:02,629 --> 02:02:01,320
um we also have links to all of our

3009
02:02:04,189 --> 02:02:02,639
twitters I'll actually go back and add

3010
02:02:05,689 --> 02:02:04,199
Sarah's Twitter as well

3011
02:02:08,209 --> 02:02:05,699
so good

3012
02:02:11,450 --> 02:02:08,219
we're at 1103 it is time for my beauty

3013
02:02:14,030 --> 02:02:11,460
rest same gentlemen need to uh go get

3014
02:02:15,410 --> 02:02:14,040
your sweet dreams but thanks again for

3015
02:02:16,370 --> 02:02:15,420
uh another episode of The Invisible

3016
02:02:22,420 --> 02:02:16,380
night school

3017
02:02:22,430 --> 02:02:37,960
[Music]

3018
02:02:37,970 --> 02:02:43,910
[Laughter]

3019
02:02:43,920 --> 02:02:46,720
foreign

3020
02:03:18,940 --> 02:02:52,960
[Music]

3021
02:03:26,610 --> 02:03:18,950
[Applause]

3022
02:03:26,620 --> 02:03:56,229
[Music]